Hey all,

I've been into castles and stuff for quite a while (in the SCA for a few years) and now my fiancee is insisting we have to have one. Of course, who am I to refuse

However, I've spent all day sifting around looking at floor plans and find myself really quite torn. The practical side of me is looking at some of castle magics floor layouts and going, thats really good, nice flow and very practical. However the authentic side of me is telling the practical side "no, sit down and be quiet".

I've found some possibilities however, in looking at ones like Fraser Castle. It doesn't quite remind me of the big traditional castle stereotype, but one could get all the functions necessary out of it (area for a great hall and some sort of high roof decking would be ideal) plus it could be modular in its construction to an extent.

Its unlikely that I'll get to use features like mates or cliffs, or possibly even a hill so that to an extent rules out alot of styles since they would just look out of place.

I suspect I think I should be looking more at fortified manors rather than castles, however are there any examples of castles that aren't over the top (not massive like say Warwick) that have a larger element of domestic life to them, such as non detached kitchens and the like?

I guess I'm kind of after the conveniences of a regular house, while compromising with authenticity as little as possible.

Did that make sense?

Let me apologize first for the tardiness of a reply let alone letting you register.
We've had bad storms the last two days and nights and my wife and I have been out fixing fence and chasing strays.

Yes perfect sense and one I've been through my self.
One day looking at floor plans is a start with many headaches to come sorry to say.
When you said authentic compared to modern day you opened a copy of Pandora's box filled with questions instead of bad things.

Several of our members are also building a modern castle and/or looking for what is right for their dreams with in budget and location.
Sometimes a very complex equation and some times not depending on many things.

Truthfully there are many floor plans for smaller castles including tower houses and other types here on site.

I've bumped you to a new member group to aid in your search and feel free to post where ever.
Some one here will always try to help with what ever info we can.

If you rummage about under the cobwebs in this place you'll find that we've had a few discussions on styles/authenticity and the like, feel free two put your tuppence worth in.
As for styles, looking at Castle Fraser implies you'd consider a 'tower house', a Scottish castle style, which is as traditional as any other style of castle, but not classic in terms of what you'd have learned at school. Every castle is different, but you have to ask yourself what a castle is. Look up our debate on 'the age old discussion' http://www.castleduncan.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1113 and you'll get the drift. YOU have to decide for yourself what a castle is before you can decide what it is you want to build.

Some other though provoking threads here are;
http://www.castleduncan.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=482
http://www.castleduncan.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1204

There are others, but you can go search for them yourself to get a feel for the place. Have fun.

....Oh and welcome to the lunacy that is Castle Duncan, also known as Bedlam.

Thanks for the welcome everyone

Just looking at the plans for Bodiam, which is actually a really nice layout (of sorts) but definately one of the best yet that I have seen.

I do quite like tower houses, mostly since they dont look out of place in most locations, but most seem to be a one room per floor sort of thing.

This one here looks quite interesting, however I cant really make out whats what for the labeling.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/gscrp/Borthwick.html



I do like this layout to an extent, since you could have all of the most used rooms in the actual tower house. I think I'd probably consider lengthening that shorter wing however to also hold a traditional staircase so one could actually move furniture and the like between the floors with more ease

But with the fraser plan, could someone please tell me what the "lug" is and what its purpose is?

A 'Lug' is Scots for an ear. In the context above, it's a spy hole for listening in to conversation. Borthwick is an unusual double tower, now in use as a hotel. Sorry about the quality of the scans, I didn't have much web space in those days for high res pics, and they were posted really to illustrate the layout rather than provide enough detail for builders. I can re-scan and send you them if you wish.

http://www.borthwickcastle.co.uk/

I'm slightly confused now, just looking at the pictures of Borthwick, so rather than a traditional tower house which is kind of an L plan, is Borthwick more of a U plan with both towers very close together?

If so why would that have been done?

Yes it's a U plan, why? who knows. Defensively it would have made the place more difficult to take once an intruder was within the walls, it is also a massive building, and quite a status symbol in those days, 'my castle is not just any castle'.
It might simply be that Lord Borthwick wanted to distinguish himself by doing something out of the ordinary, and there are a few from around that period which do that, Hermitage, Crookston and Borthwick.
There are also a few examples of a keep type tower being a double tower, ie having a dividing wall right down the middle effectively partitioning the tower into two parts, eg Craignethan. Is Borthwick the same thing, except they've taken it a stage further by giving some open space too? It could be that he wanted all the additional accomodation, but wanted a clear division between Guest and private quarters.
It's like that because that's the way Lord Borthwick wanted it, maybe just to indulge himself in what became the legend regarding his form of justice. Anyone convicted of a crime within his barony allegedly had the right to go free if they could leap the gap between the towers! It was a long way down if they failed!
Remember that one of the primary functions of a castle was to display the status and power of the owner.

I think we'll move this post to the floorplans forum later on.

In many castles the main door was in the U section giving a good entrance coverage with cross fire patterns and with the use of a strong door behind a portcullis gave the effect of a gate house,


not sure that made sense

Yup, but in this case the entrance was/is on the north wall, and is now accessed via a small stair tower to first floor level. The drawbridge into this first floor entrance originally carried you across from the top of the curtain wall.
You can just see the entrance and 'modern' stair in this pic.

Very impressive place for many reasons.
I've all ways admired Mc G and R's ability to cross section plans and wish I had the knack for my own plans

Well they were trained architects, it was their job. I suppose if they hadn't been good at it they'd have gone out of business! What I admire is the fact that they managed to do the drawings based on a visit by bicycle, and given the number of sites they covered in their time, they couldn't have spent much time at each, and yet they still got the detail.....back to what I said at the start...it was their job.

A job can be a heartless occupation with drudgery lapping at ones heels but what those two men did was an act of love and I have no better way to describe what they accomplished.
I do admire their works from all aspects.

I couldn't have said it better myself!

Ok, from my limited knowledge (ie none

Looking at these plans, thanks for the high res scans, fantastic

So for the actual main part of the tower, is 3 cavaties devided into 6 floors? 2 on the first, one for the great hall and that top being split into 3?

With the wings containing 7 floors on one and 6 on the other (minus well room)

Do you think it would be quite plausable for that sprial staircase by the entrance on the right wall, by the great hall to be carried up the entire tower with a modern style staircase? (possibly lift if its cheap enough but staircase would work). I'm just thinking of ways to move furniture around, and being that the sprials wont really cut it

What would your thoughts be on a way to accomidate ease of non dismantable furniture between the floors?

Just as a total aside,

Does anyone know what this castle called? Its beautiful. Took a screenshot of it off the tv show A Place in Italy.

Nope, don't recognize that building at all, but then I'm not familiar with Italy.
Yes some of the large vaulted chambers are subdivided by floors, indicated by dotted lines, or where the corbels that support the floors are drawn.
Furniture? Large stairs, some castles adapted later introduced scale and platt stairs which can be wider, but asking whether a plan could be adapted to replace a turnpike is a question which would have to go to a structural engineer, you'd certainly need a lot more space, and would have to create that.

I think your 'castle' may be the Abbey of San Vittore.
http://www.frasassi.com/abaziauk.html

So what's your name, we can't keep naming you after a Scandinavian and a german car?

How are you all handling the moving things between floors thing? Or are you just making sure the furniture you have and use is able to be dismantled into chunks to take down turnpikes?

Names Brendon

Welcome Brendon....nice having you here! Feel free to join us in trivia. We are always looking for more people to play with us. When you see a question posted in either castle trivia or general trivia, post the answer if you know it or google for the answer then post. Hope to see you there.

We know some one who used to own Castle Levin and he had to rent a crane to move his furniture and mother in law...urrr well thats what he said any way.
One other Tower House owner we know is moving his stuff up the turnpike stairs.

For Castle Duncan there is a crude lift between two floors in an open area surrounded by a gallery. It's a wee bit reminiscent of something I once saw in an old manuscript to lift stone and mortar whilst building a wall.
All other stuff can be lifted up the turnpikes or over the building walls.

A turnpike stair can easily accommodate a man in amour falling or sliding down the center. Theres more room then you might think.

I like the sound of the lift, sounds ideal.

So for a turnpike, moving something like your average 7' by 4' bookcase up one wouldnt be too much of a drama?

Thats 4 foot wide right?
Some stairs that would be too wide and others it would fit with extra room.
Turnpikes come in many sizes depending on the builder and the age in which the castle was built.
The later ages are usully the widest.
Some are left handed but most are right and some are actually not turnpikes but are built on the circular pattern.

A true turnpike or what I refer to as a battle stair is narrow, tight, and with a steep rise. A center rope and or a rope to the outer edge is really helpful when climbing or descending these.

Especially when you're less than sober!

Just another thought, if one was to use Borthwick as an actual house, most of the rooms would only have one window, some possibly none. Would you use any modern tricks to imrove fresh air ventilation into the rooms?

yes, make more windows.
It revolves about several castle facts, one they were always renovated after they were built so all kinds of improvements (?) were added down the ages.

I guess a to the point answer to your question is yes there are all sorts of AC/Heat things can be done to make the castle more modern to improve air movement.
Most of the answers would depend on technicality's with in the structure and should be best left to the architect once the plans are decided on.

Now windows are a different matter and can be freely chosen for size, shape, placement etc.

Personally I wouldn't, If I wanted to buy and live in a castle I would accept it as it was. I'm a traditionalist and would attempt to maintain it and live in it in the form in which I gained it. I would adapt to the castle, not the other way around.
Modernisation is something which all lived in buildings suffer. If I had to concede anything to modernity I would do it a sympathetically as possible, putting preservation of the building first, indeed the listed building rules would inhibit what I could do as they should.
But then I have no desire to live in a castle as it wouldn't suit my lifestyle so my answer is hypothetical.
It is an entirely different case if you wanted to build a replica castle to live in, then you can design it to suit you, giving the appearance of medievalism with modern convenience. Modern materials would allow you to build in air con in a discrete manner, whilst maintaining the illusion. An ancient building would not be so adaptable, requiring regular constant heat to maintain damp proofing for instance.

I can testify to the center rope when a wee bit into the cups

Yup I agree and presumed a replica was the subject of debate.
As far as I know I'm the only loony to actually be building a true castle with out organizational support like the one in France.

Shows insight, which 'loonies' don't have, so you're not yet causing me much concern!

I put in that wee bit to draw out the differences, New builds of whatever variety are a completely different prospect to the Real McCoy.

I'm most certainly relieved I haven't stepped over the line but you have no idea what ordering 22 tonnes of quick lime in 90 lb bags can do to the mind.
Yup agree with you about the differences involved with out a doubt.

And where are our other new castle builders are you think?

on vacation?

A good link providing info Conservation of Historic Buildings, which provides a catologue of publications on this topic, from Historic Scotland

Historic Scotland- Conservation

Yea, definately talking about a replica, since there are no castles in NZ, well apart from one which isnt a castle really.

I'm thinking though that a tower house with lots of windows would look kind of strange, I've seen one or two that are like that, which really do look out of place.

What castle floorplans/exteriors have people on here chosen and going to run with?

I dont know yet...I like a few different plans with center courtyards..I have also sketched out a basic layout based on a celtic cross...similiar to cathedral plans...I will make plan choices based on land purchase...which I hope to make in the next 5 years...if not sooner.

The one my wife and I own and is under construction right now is a real castle, meaning it follows the criteria for what makes a castle what it is.
Bits and pieces of its descriptions is in the PHP/HTML web site area and here in the forums.
I don't speak much of it because I would bore every one to death if I did.

Found some more interior shots of Borthwick which is helping me gain perspective on things. seems that its current alteration as a hotel means alot of the flooring system and plans has changed Confusing, I'm yet to decide which is better, current or the plans that were posted here

When do you plan to start constructon? Whatever plans you choose will end up needing modifaction to fit the building codes in NZ. For instance, you made only be allowed to build up 3 storeys instead of four etc.