PAB
Jan 25 2007, 04:47 PM
Dear all
For some reason creating a new post allows me to upload images whereas to reply to Andrew's Buck Prints thread doesn't!.
Anyhow. I attach a book scan of the Samuel Buck engraving of Sheriff Hutton dated 1721.
Click to view attachmentI also include some recent photo's of Sheriff Hutton castle in ruins and some photo's of Bolton Castle. It has been suggested that Samuel Buck used Bolton as a model for his engraving of Sheriff Hutton.
I have seen today a book illustration of Samuel Buck's sketchbook page of Sheriff Hutton of 1721 or 1723 and the castle is very ruinous in this sketch much like it appears today.
Why on earth would Buck do this when all his other engravings appear to be true to life at the time?. Perhaps the Sheriff Hutton engraving really is Bolton and mis-labelled?.
Any suggestions?.
Cheers
Peter
Sheriff Hutton Castle
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachmentBolton Castle
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment
Gordon
Jan 26 2007, 12:00 AM
I don't think the Bucks would have deliberately misrepresented the castles. There are a variety of possibilities,
1. mislabeling as you suggested, possibly by the engraver rather than Buck.
2.They may have misidentified the castle when they sketched it.
3.This is an additional sketch by a third party and misrepresented as Buck.
4.It may have been a 'reconstructive drawing'/ artists impression of how it once was, and the explanation omitted by printers error, or contained elsewhere in the original publication.
Maybe Andrew has some factual data on this.
Lovely pics.
AJR
Jan 26 2007, 03:42 AM
Firstly, thanks Peter.
QUOTE
For some reason creating a new post allows me to upload images whereas to reply to Andrew's Buck Prints thread doesn't!.
I will try and copy the image and place it in the Bucks Castle topic
QUOTE
I don't think the Bucks would have deliberately misrepresented the castles. There are a variety of possibilities,
1. mislabeling as you suggested, possibly by the engraver rather than Buck.
2.They may have misidentified the castle when they sketched it.
3.This is an additional sketch by a third party and misrepresented as Buck.
4.It may have been a 'reconstructive drawing'/ artists impression of how it once was, and the explanation omitted by printers error, or contained elsewhere in the original publication.
Maybe Andrew has some factual data on this.
Looking at this sketch, I have a couple of points to make.
While the Buck's prints are not always entirely accurately represented (unlike Billings), they
are normally a reasonable interpretation of what is there.
The first thing I noted was that the corner towers in the sketch are less massive than those of Bolton Castle.
The depiction of the rope-line around the castle seems to match that of Sheriff Hutton.
The depiction of Pontefract Castle by the Bucks is of the castle BEFORE it was demolished, so this may be a similar depiction.
The absence of the title of the sketch (top and bottom) does not help, but the style is certainly similar to the early Bucks.
Beyond that, I have no other information to hand, but will check my "library" at the weekend.
Gordon
Jan 26 2007, 08:06 AM
QUOTE
The first thing I noted was that the corner towers in the sketch are less massive than those of Bolton Castle.
I'd noticed differences in the entrance and windows too.
The missing title gives the clue and Andrew's comment on their sketch of Pontefract re-inforces my inclination that this might be a re-constructive drawing.
Duncan
Jan 26 2007, 10:15 AM
Peter, I think I found the problem, give it another try.
AJR
Jan 26 2007, 10:33 AM
I've uploaded it for him.
Duncan
Jan 26 2007, 11:24 AM
Yup I know thanks but we still need to see if the problem is fixed, so Peter if you don't mind upload something to somewhere please. It can always be deleted later if you don't want to keep it posted
PAB
Jan 29 2007, 01:04 PM
Hi all
Thanks for your replies to my 'Buck' post. It is intriguing isn't it?.
Anyhow, my uploading photo's capability is certainly available on this reply (file attachment buttons active at bottom of page). I'm going to have a look on Andrew's 'Buck' thread and see if the same is true there. I am hopeful that the problem is now solved (thanks).
Just back from a long week-end in Rome - hence the delayed reply (no 'proper' castles to speak of but some good medieval defensive towers, the famous Castel St Angelo (mausoleum for Emperor Hadrian) and of course all the brilliant Roman stuff).
Best
Peter B.
Gordon
Jan 29 2007, 02:32 PM
It is intriguing, but then so is much of history and perhaps that is why so many of us are captivated by castles which are solid remnants of a long tale which has often been corrupted or peppered with gaps which draw us all in.
Thanks for your recent posts Peter, I'm particularly enjoying the pics of Sherriff Hutton, but especially the mystery you've set us.
I've found a copy of the Sheriff Hutton Buck's print up for sale on e-bay, and posted the full image in the Bucks' castle prints forum. For completeness, I'll post a copy here too. This does not actually shed any more light on the original question though.
The only thing it does show is that the picture IS a Buck's image.
AJR
Jul 10 2007, 09:43 AM
I'm doing some more research on this one. Hope to get some answers.
AJR
Jul 20 2007, 09:10 AM
Here's a print of Sheriff Hutton Castle in 1797. The difference between this and the Bucks' print (76 years earlier) is significant.
PAB
Jul 21 2007, 05:54 AM
That picture is a good find and shows the castle hasn't deteriorated that much more since then until now really. if anyone has a copy (a facsimilie was produced by Wakefield Historical Society in the 1970's) of Samuel Buck's Yorkshire Sketchbook from the 1720's there is a sketch of Sheriff Hutton within. This sketch shows the castle ruin much as Andrew's print here of 1797. I have seen the Buck Sketch but don't have an illustration.
I wasn't aware that Buck had done a few 'restoration' type engravings until this thread so maybe that is the explanation of the 'fake' in this case.? If so however, it is a rather basic attempt as he doesn't seem to have used the evidence before his eyes as the basis for the reconstruction? Do we have any illustrations amongst us of the other 'restoration' attempts and are they any more convincing?
Peter
AJR
Jul 23 2007, 09:03 AM
The only other restoration attempt I am aware of is Pontefract Castle (called Pomfret on the Bucks' print).
Click to view attachmentThis restoration view is similar to other prints of Pontefract Castle which can be seen withing the individual topic of the castle at
http://www.castleduncan.com/forum/index.ph...p;hl=Pontefract Why they chose not to show the castle in its current state, I've no idea. There is at least a reasonable amount remaining.
As I said, I don't think they did any other prints showing a view of "how the castle was", and I would have assumed that they would have placed such a comment on the sketch of Sheriff Hutton Castle if that is what they had meant to do.
I am still looking into this, but I suspect the answers (if there are indeed any) will not be satisfactory.
PAB
Jul 23 2007, 03:40 PM
Is the Pontefract engraving the only other 'restoration' then?. Buck of course had several earlier pictures available to him on which to base his restoration of Pontefract. The 'best' picture is the one in Pontefract museum dated 1625 - 30 (ie before the English Civil war of the 1640's after which the castle was thoroughly slighted) - low res web image here:
Click to view attachmentThe Buck engraving of Pontefract 'before it was demolished' bears some similarity to this painting and may well have been influenced by it.
The Sheriff Hutton engraving is a bit of an enigma for sure as it doesn't follow this pattern or seem to be based on actual remains. In the 18th century when the Buck's were working, Pontefract was a total ruin with only the lowest courses of masonry left standing so building a reconstruction at that time needed to be either imaginary or based on another, older picture (as seems to be the case). Sheriff Hutton had quite a bit of standing masonry (more than Pontefract anyway) so the recontsruction could have been more realistic if desired.
Peter
Duncan
Sep 6 2007, 07:20 PM
This just in from Tony a new member. (I had registration turned off for spammer fishing)
QUOTE
Hello Admin!
Concerning Sheriff Hutton Castle and Buck's engraving. I have just found your thread and can answer the question posed but you are not accepting new members at present:
The engraving is not a fake but it might be plagiarised.
I should first tell you that I have been researching Sheriff Hutton Castle for over twenty years and my ancestors go back in the village for about three hundred. I have transcribed a number of Tudor documents and a group of us published a partial history in "Within the Pale", Edited by Ed Dennison, in 2005.
I thought for years that Buck's engraving was a fake, especially after seeing his sketchbook, which, of course, shows the Castle he drew to be very similar to today. I assumed that it was a picture of Bolton, superimposed on a Buck "Distant View of York". However, I then found the unattributed engraving of the Castle which you can see on the Tate Gallery's website (T11607) and they are similar in many ways: Both of them have the same windows, for example, which are the wrong shape but in the right places for Sheriff Hutton Castle and the right shape but in the wrong positions for Bolton. I went to try and find the place in the village where the persective suggests both pictures were drawn from and it exists. If you go there, it is just to the west of the new 'phone mast but in a privately owned field. In summer, foliage obscures the view.
There are differences: The Tate picture has an intermediate tower in the west wall, missing from Buck's and the tops of the towers have been cleaned up by Buck.
This, of course, raises other questions: Who drew the picture at the Tate, when and how did Buck get to see it? Did he plagiarise it and how accurate is it? Why, apparently, did two artists chose to leave out the east end of the Castle, which had the main entrance, three more towers and was nearly as big as the west quadrangle?
In Walpole's "Catalogue of Engravers working in England..." he mentions that Willliam Lodge engraved a picture of Sheriff Hutton Castle. Now, Lodge lived from about 1640 to about 1689 and was a member of a group who called themselves "The Club of Virtuosi". They travelled the country, drawing historical sites (a risky activity at the time and they were taken for Jacobites on at least one occasion -the group included Francis Place, whose own drawing of the Castle is in York City Art Gallery but dated 1715). So, it is possible that the Tate picture is by Lodge and therefore dates from between, say 1660 and 1689. If so, the Castle had been treated as a quarry for the Ingram family's new Lodge in the Deer Park (don't be fooled by the title "Lodge" - it was a huge house, as big as Temple Newsham and stone built until reduced in size and clad in brick in the eighteenth century) and for houses in the village. Above all, the Ingrams took the good stonework: mantlepieces, steps and windows. Yet there were still tenants living in rooms in the Castle. I would guess that, without the windows (and any glass had gone by the end of the sixteenth century), the tenants fitted shutters - hence the square shapes where the perpendicular windows should be on the engravings. It looks as if the towers at the east end were ruinous early in the seventeenth century and I can only guess that the odd shape this produced made the artists reluctant to include it. I don't know Buck's history but I would guess that he knew members of the Club and used the earlier drawing with approval.
I hope that this answers your question and I would love to find the answers to the questions I have posed - and another:
In 1572, Sir Ambrose Cave was commissioned to make surveys of the Royal Castles north of the Trent. Many of these survive (mostly in the National Archives) and they are such excellent drawings (both plans and perspectives) that we know the shapes and layouts of castles such as Tutbury and Pontefract. So did he do Sheriff Hutton? And, if so, where is his survey?
I'd love to know,
regards,
Tony Wright
Here is a copy of the picture Tony Wright is referring to, taken from the Tate online website.
Click to view attachmentNow compare this with Buck's sketch.
Click to view attachmentThe problem is - which came first? I know that a number of Buck's views were copied into various tomes later in the 1700s, notably in 1769 and 1797.
Compare for instance, the Buck's sketch of Norham Castle in Northumberland, in 1728, with the 1769 copied version.
Bucks view - 1728.Click to view attachmentLater copy - 1769.Click to view attachmentMy initial reaction is that, given the coarseness of the Tate's picture, it is probably pre-Buck, and therefore pre 1721. However, seeing the coarser copy of Norham Castle produced 40 years after the original, it is also possible it could be the other way round.
I had been doing my own investigations, and here is a copy of a message received from the editor of a local website.
QUOTE
-----Original Message-----
From: "Brian Parkinson" [mailto:editor@sheriffhutton.org.uk]
Sent: 30 July 2007 12:06
To: Andrew Rowland
Subject: <no subject>
Andrew
Sorry for the late reply to your e-mail on 23 July. I returned from holiday late yesterday.
As you will already know the castle is surrounded by a "pale" and a book titled "Within the Pale" was published in 2005. This is 270 pages and covers in some detail how and when the castle was built.
There is an engraving, shown in the "Pale" book by Mr Buck in which the castle looks like shoe boxes glued together ! However, on the opposite page, is a drawing by Rev. Allen in 1840 which looks like the real thing and is kept in the York City Art Gallery. There is also a pre 1887 photo in the "Pale" book with a view from the South.
A slide show was presented, when the book was published, in the Village Hall. Some coloured drawings were presented which, I believe, showed the castle in its finished condition before any demolishing took place. I am not sure if these are still available but I will search and let you know.
Regards
Brian
I have had no further reply from Mr. Parkinson, but Tony Wright has set me on the path again. If his information that the castle was used as a quarry before the end of the 17th century is correct (and I see no reason why he should provide incorrect details), then Buck's sketch is a copy of the Tate's one - a situation similar to their sketch of Pontefract.
However, while the Buck brothers were not perfect, they did indicate in the Pontefract case that it was a view of how the castle had once looked - something that is not mentioned in the Sheriff Hutton case. Both of these sketches were produced in 1721, and I would have thought the Buck brothers would at least have been consistent in their descriptions. After all, they were Yorkshiremen, and any mis-interpretation of their early works of local sites would probably have led to them being less popular, and further works possibly dismissed.
I still have an open mind, until specific dates can be provided for :
a) the Tate's sketch, (which even if pre-Buck, does not necessarily imply the Bucks' sketch is incorrect), but more importantly, for
b) the date of dismantling to the point shown in the sketch of 1797.
Gordon
Sep 9 2007, 05:57 AM
Keep up the good work Sherlock, or should it be Clouseu

!
This is an intriquing thread.
PAB
Sep 10 2007, 03:24 PM
Thanks to everyone for the input and research on this - the thread is going really well. Andrew - the comparison pictures are very interesting - keep the research going ... please.
I am especially delighted to hear from Tony Wright as it was his Sheriff Hutton Castle chapter in the book he mentions - Within the Pale - that prompted me to submit the initial question in this post to begin with.
I had the pleasure of being given a guided tour of the Castle grounds by Tony as part of a study group I was with a year or two back. This engraving enigma was just one of many interesting facets of this castle and the site. - and Tony - if you are enrolled and reading this - you were going to publish some of your research on Sheriff Hutton castle - either in print or web based. Is there any movement on this front?
regards to all
Peter
Duncan
Sep 10 2007, 04:49 PM
He is a registered member now but I haven't seen him here yet. It would good to hear from him
AJR
Sep 19 2007, 02:47 AM
For sake of completeness, I've posted Tony's response on this matter, here.
QUOTE
Many thanks Duncan,
It's good to encounter folks who share the interest. Many thanks for posting my e-Mail. I made one significant mistake in it: Sheriff Hutton Hall was originally built mainly of brick with ornamental stonework. In the 1640s it was extended with 940 loads of stone from the Castle.
It's also good to receive the comments - as I work alone most of the time, I need to test it in front of others. It hadn't occured to me that Buck's engraving could be earlier than the Tate one. I'll have to think about that.
Anyway, I'll get myself on,
Cheers,
Tony
I would like to add that, although I argued it is POSSIBLE that the Buck's engraving may be earlier than the Tate one, it is not a certainty.
Tony Wright
Sep 30 2007, 04:00 AM
I believe that we will eventually have a good idea of how the Castle looked when Sam Buck did his sketch.
There is plenty of written information about it from 1486, when it became a Royal possession, to 1921, when the Halifax estate sold Sheriff Hutton. The Ministers Acounts for the Lordship of Sheriff Hutton, which cover Tudor times, are in the National Archives. After that, it was acquired by the Ingram family (the Earl of Halifax is a descendant) and their papers are in the West Yorkshire Archives.
Above all, we have an Inquisition into the state of the Castle and Park, dated 1598, which describes some early depradations (N.A., E178/2792). One of the witnesses said of the Earl of Huntingdon, President in the North from 1572 until his death in December 1595, "Comyng to the said Castle in a Rainy Day And seeing the said house at Sheriff hutton to be in decay in divse places Comanded the said Richard Pollerd to repayre it And the said Erle did then apoint the said Richard Pollerd to take c¯taine pcells of Leade of the said house in c¯taine places thereof And comanded The same to be brought to yorke to be solde And the mony be distributed towardes the chardge of the Repayringe of the said house". Richard Pollard, who had charge of the Castle under the Earl, arranged for the lead to be taken from a "lantern" over the great hall, from "filleting" in the kitchen and from several little "turrets". Some was taken to the common crane in York and sold, some was taken to the "Quene's Mannor howse at Yorke" (now King's Manor and part of York University but then the headquarters of the Council in the North). No money was being provided for the upkeep of the Castle and, by the time of the Inquisition, the great barn was gone, as was the "Lady Bridge" spanning the gardens and "moats", there was no mill (nor millstones), much glass had been removed, several doors and their ironmongery, most of the 24 "gonnes" seem to have been spirited away and recast as fittings for wagons. The portcullis was in pieces in a store room. This seems to be the beginning of the end ("The History of the King's Works", Ed. Colvin has a good quick survey of the deterioration).
By 1618, when the Castle was granted to Thomas Lumsden, the terms of the grant show that it was a source of "stone, iron, timber and lead". Although Lumsden tried to retain sufficient of the castle to use as a gaol, not only Sir Arthur Ingram but others were preying on the place. A room in the Constable Tower had collapsed in 1615 as had part of a tower "towards the park" and Lumsden's plan to convert and live in the gatehouse range had been shelved by 1620, when he bought bricks and flagstones to build a new house at Knackenthwaite Launde in Galtres Forest. Ingram arranged for Lumsden to be shifted aside and his men started serious robbing of the Castle in 1623/4, mainly of windows, doors, "mantle trees" and iron (in other words, all the good stuff) for his new Hunting Lodge and unidentified folks had stolen a good part of the lead over the great hall. There were still tenants, although several times we've found that the Steward was staying at the Lodge in the Park or at Ingram's palace in York rather than in the castle, where he was entitled to rooms.
Ingram's youngest son, Sir Thomas, built stables and brewhouse onto the (massive) Lodge from 1638, taking 940 loads of stone from the castle (they are still there, now called the Rangers House, although the adjacent Lodge, now the Hall, is less than a third of its original size).
We don't yet know what happened during the Civil War, although there was a skirmish in Sheriff Hutton Park. My grandmother (born and brought up in the village) maintained that some cannonballs had been found in the castle, which showed that Cromwell ruined it, but there is no evidence of this now and I don't know where the cannonballs are.
If you walk around Sheriff Hutton, almost all of the older houses are brick. Don't be fooled - many have a core of stone and the outer walls have been converted or covered in brick. As there is no natural stone in the village and the core stone is the same as the castle, you can draw your own conclusions. There are various records of towers being pulled down and falling as well as records of people taking stone for their own purposes.
We concluded (or I did, anyway) that there had been four big towers and a smaller gatehouse tower in the "inner ward" (the square area still sort of standing) and two or three more forming the middle ward. That would be the area to the east, where the courtyard development is now. A photograph exists, showing the base of the north eastern of these still there in the 1880s and Samuel Sharpe included a drawing of it in his 1849 thesis for the RIBA Sloane Medallion. It had been built into the courthouse.
There was also the "outer ward", which I believe to have had seven small towers, enclosing what is now the castle garth. Another photograph may show the base of one of these due north of the surviving north western tower.
The width of the gatehouse range of the middle ward is shown in Bernard Dinninghof's plans for Lumsden, which are dimensioned.
Brian Parkinson mentions that there are pictures of the intact Castle:
Sam Sharpe drew superb and imaginative reconstructions in 1849 to win his medallion (they're in the RIBA library. I have a copy but RIBA have the rights and I haven't asked about reproduction). Shaun Richardson (of Ed Dennison Archaeological Services) drew the first reconstruction that I know of based on archaeological study, for a presentation at Sheriff Hutton in 2002. Since then, he and I have traded ideas and I've used Photoshop® to recreate the view from the south as I think it would have been in about 1530, during the occupation by Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond. It is still a work in progress, using photographs from about 1887 as a base, and, annoyingly, I have temporarily lost the file whilst switching computers. I have only a dial up line, so I'll try to post a small version of it, scanned from a print.
Other pictures of the castle show frustrating variations:
J Walker's engraving of 1797 is a case in point. Some of the towers are drawn with less stonework than is there now, which suggests that he is unreliable. However, he shows two little doors in the foreground which are present in Sam Sharpe's record drawings. Also the perspective is right and the various bits are in the right places. He says that it is from a drawing by Mr J Hornsey. I'd love to find that drawing.
Francis Place (one of the Club of Virtuosi) did a drawing of the south east tower from the inside, which is dated 1715 (the original is in York Art Gallery). It shows several exposed and ruined barrel vaults which are now gone but is very confined in what he drew. I cannot believe that he didn't draw some more of the place but I don't know where these drawings are, if they survive.
Henry Cave's drawing from the south east is the one which was reproduced in Todd's "Castellum Huttonicum" of 1824 and the perspective has been turned into a nightmare. Other's reproduced it with the same mistakes or worse (for example Thomas Allen in 1831 and Nathaniel Whittock sometime later). Todd also mucked up Cave's drawing from the north east. Both of these pictures are suspiciously like George Nicholson's drawings. He did a tour around the area in August 1824 and his sketchbook is in York Art Gallery.
The best that I know of is Rev. Allen's detailed sketch from the south east in 1840. His drawing is consistent with the surviving ruins and with the bits of other folks' drawings of pieces now missing. He shows a lot more of the north eastern tower than survives today, including the shell of a vice on its west side.
But only Sam Sharpe included the eastern end of the Castle, until Mr Blair F.S.A. whose sketch (published in "The Antiquarian", Vol 28, 1893, p10) confirms Sharpe's in showing the surviving bit of tower from the north east corner of the middle ward and shows it built into the farm/courthouse. We have photographs of it but couldn't orientate them until we saw this picture.
There is the icon of a castle on a Survey of Sheriff Hutton done in 1624 by the father and son team of Johns Norden (British Library, Harleian MSS No 6288, f27v) and the first plan that I know of is on the survey of Sheriff Hutton prior to its enclosure in 1765 (West Yorkshire Archive Service, Farrer Additional MS 318). I don't think that the icon is representative but the plan, shows the inner and middle wards and the Castle garth very clearly.
The Castle is in the process of being conserved but progress is in fits and starts. The North East tower was done a couple of years ago and the South West should have started soon afterwards but various practical problems have delayed it. Some research has been funded as part of the conservation work and the archaeologists (Ed and Shaun) carry on whenever they can because they are interested and have become involved in historical and archaeological work in the surrounding villages.
I have carried on with research but I have found that some of our previous work has depended on evidence which hasn't been complete. For example, the letters which detail the destruction in the early 1600s are mainly from William Clarke, steward, to his master, Thomas Lumsden. He criticises his replacement, William Tennant, who attacks him back. Each is trying to blame the other for depredations. If key phrases from the letters are taken out of context, the facts are distorted - an example of that is the letter of which the published extract says that the Constable Tower has collapsed, whereas William Clarke actually says that a room in the Constable Tower has collapsed. Fortunately, a team working for the then Royal Commission on Historical Monuments, led by Vivien Swann, looked at vast numbers of documents and they, and English Heritage, have let us see their notes, which are much more comprehensive. Another example of a misleading extract is a 1690 letter saying that Edward Thompson (then resident in Sheriff Hutton Park) had gathered together his tenants and broken open the Castle Gates. Actually as other letters show, they had broken down some fences and gates put around the garth which blocked their customary footpaths. So, I am being cautious and it will take a long time to get it all correct.
As I said, I believe that eventually, someone will do an accurate reconstruction of the Castle, based on the evidence we have now, archaeological work and further documents. If we find drawings by Sir Ambrose Cave, however, they would probably do the job for us.
Tony
Gordon
Sep 30 2007, 05:17 AM
Thanks to Tony and Andrew for even more input to this fascinating thread, we have covered numerous castles in great detail. This level of input illustrates so clearly how much we could be missing on each of the others, and that really, no matter how much time and web space you have, realistically we are only skimming the surface for so many sites. It takes a special kind of enthusiam for a particular site, such as Tony has for Sherrif Hutton and Gavin has for Codnor, to really light up the dark corners of history.
Many thanks again for sharing your passion.
Thanks Tony. I know all is not entirely clear, but you are building up a picture, and hopefully you will find the final parts that complete this puzzle and satisfy all the questions asked.
AJR
Nov 14 2007, 06:03 AM
The engraving of Sheriff Hutton Castle from the New and Complete History of the County of York, 1829. Engraved by J. Rogers from a picture by N. Whittock.
Gavin Chamberlain
Nov 29 2007, 12:08 PM
Hello All
We have the same problem with the Buck print of Codnor Castle. I am a collector of Samuel and Nathaniel Bucks Work and they are pretty much spot on with the accuracy of their subjects. The funny thing with the Codnor Castle engraving is Buck missed out vital features like the massive gate house towers. The Codnor Castle print just does'nt make sense and does'nt match the archaeology that we have found there.
Now I've started something !!!!!!!!!!!
AJR
Nov 30 2007, 04:42 AM
QUOTE (Gavin Chamberlain @ Nov 29 2007, 06:10 PM)

Hello All
We have the same problem with the Buck print of Codnor Castle. I am a collector of Samuel and Nathaniel Bucks Work and they are pretty much spot on with the accuracy of their subjects. The funny thing with the Codnor Castle engraving is Buck missed out vital features like the massive gate house towers. The Codnor Castle print just does'nt make sense and does'nt match the archaeology that we have found there.
Now I've started something !!!!!!!!!!!
Uh-oh !!! ANOTHER collector of Bucks' works. I just hope I don't end up bidding against you on e-bay for any of their works - of which there are a number right now.
I already have eight - Crickhowell, Warkworth, Rochester, Brougham, Dunstanburgh, Alnwick, Chillingham and Widdrington Castles, with hopefully one of Carisbrooke Castle on the way.
It's interesting that they have missed out some of the vital features of Codnor Castle. They may have been just "out of view", or possibly, accidentally omitted. After all, they didn't have the benefit of digital cameras to provide them with an image of what was really there.
Alternatively, they may have omitted certain features because they were more difficult to engrave, or because they interfered with other features which they wanted to include.
Whatever the reason, if they did this on the Codnor Castle engraving, how many others were subjected to similar omissions. Maybe someone could go round the country trying to obtain equivalent images of the buildings from the same viewpoints - although this may not be possible in all cases because of other structures which have been erected since then. Also, there will have been some deterioration.
And before Gordon suggests it - no, I can't do it, although once Liz passes her driving test, it may be possible for some of the Kentish Castles at least.
Anyhow, thanks for that observation Gavin. Another can of worms opened !!!
Sheriff Hutton Castle is now up for sale.
From The Daily Mail, 30th April 2008 Crumbling castle complete with hooded ghost and bat cave on sale for £1.5mA couple have put a crumbling haunted castle up for sale alongside their four-bedroom home for £1.5million.
At the bottom of Dr. Richard Howarth and his wife Jenny's garden are the 100ft tall remains of Sheriff Hutton Castle. The haunted ruins of the building, located near York, don't have a recognisable roof and comprises four weather-beaten towers and a cave filled with bats. Legend has it the castle is occupied by a black-hooded phantom named Nancy.
Dr. Howarth, 67, from the tiny village of Sheriff Hutton, said: "The ghost is thought to be a servant girl and wears a black hooded cloak. My father saw her several times walking across the courtyard although my wife and I have never seen her."
In the past, the 15th-century castle was home to numerous monarchs, with Richard III being the most famous, when he lived there in 1471. It was built in 1408 and remained a royal residency until the 17th century, when it fell into the hands of the aristocratic Ingram family. The castle had been neglected since 1618, when it was described as "ruinous".
Dr. Howarth's grandfather bought the castle in 1940, while he was working as a textile manufacturer. In 1995, Dr. Howarth inherited the castle and set about stabilising the ruins with the help of a £540,000 grant.
He said: "I love the castle. I can remember climbing all over it as a child. For me it was a magical playground and it's incredibly atmospheric. It's stable and resilient although bits do fall off. My hope is that we find an eccentric buyer who loves history and has a lot of money to throw at a ruin. Leaving it is a quite a wrench but it has been a privilege to own it."
The retired university fellow revealed the ghost appeared on one occasion and spooked a guest.
He said: "Nancy once appeared in the old farmhouse. A guest who had to get up in the night to go to the loo saw her and was so frightened she fell down the stairs."
Tourists from Japan and America have visited the castle in the past with Dr. Howarth showing them around the garden's key artefact. Also included in the price is a two-bedroom cottage and 11 acres of land – but it will be the opportunity to own a piece of history that will attract the most attention.
Tim Blenkin, the estate agent who put the property on the market, said: "This is a chance to own a remarkable part of English history."
http://www.blenkinandco.com/Templates/BC_D...en&DoLogin=
Just in case the weblink is lost at some stage in the future, here are the details.
Sheriff Hutton Castle Estate and Warden's House
A unique small Estate comprising the scheduled ancient monument of Sheriff Hutton Castle, surrounding pasture land and woodland. Owner’s house with 4 bedrooms, 2 reception rooms, farmhouse kitchen and usual offices. Adjoining self-contained 2 bedroom cottage which can be incorporated to create a 6 bedroom house. Garden, outbuildings and garaging.
In all some 11 acres
• York 10 miles
If there is a more iconic landmark than the ruins of the 600 year old Sheriff Hutton Castle, steepling above the Vale of York, it is surely hard to identify.
History
The castle was built and owned by four generations of the Neville family, the most famous of whom was Richard Neville or Warwick the Kingmaker. When Warwick died at the battle of Barnet in 1471, Sheriff Hutton Castle was confiscated by Edward IV and it was owned by the Royal family under eight kings and queens, of whom the best known are Richard III, Henry VIII and Elizabeth I. In the 17th century the castle, by then in disrepair, fell into the hands of the Ingram family, ancestors of the Earls of Halifax. In 1940 the castle and its farmland were sold to Wilfred Wagstaff, a textile manufacturer from West Yorkshire, and it is his family who have lived there for the three succeeding generations until the present day. Thus it is that the property has not been offered publicly for sale for some 70 years.
Among other historical events, Sheriff Hutton Castle was the main base for Richard, Duke of Gloucester, who later became Richard III, when he was created Lord of the North and Governor of the counties north of the Trent in 1471. 13 years later, by now Richard III, he established the Council of the North which was the effective government of the area, with one of its main bases at Sheriff Hutton. In 1485 the surviving Plantagenets took refuge here after the Battle of Bosworth, and it is quite possible that the Princes in the Tower, Edward and Richard, were temporarily residents before their sad demise. To this day, Sheriff Hutton Castle remains a romantic ruin and a shrine for the many supporters of Richard III.
The castle still contains two useable vaulted chambers: the Guard Room, used for storing farm machinery; and the Sounding Hall, some 40ft x 20ft, used as an atmospheric venue for parties and celebrations.
Residential Accommodation
The residential accommodation included in the sale is on a substantial scale. Some four years ago the Victorian farm buildings were converted to a high standard with the largest unit retained by the vendors. The house, known as The Warden’s House, fronts onto the great courtyard of the castle, and there is an adjoining two bedroom cottage called Court Cottage which provides an excellent granny flat or guest accommodation or a possible letting income. It is possible to incorporate the cottage with the main house to provide family accommodation on a grand scale amounting in all to around 4300 sq ft. There are, in addition, garages and outbuildings as well as gardens and pasture land.
The sale of this remarkable small estate represents a once in a lifetime opportunity to buy a slice of truly English history.
Outside
There is a pretty courtyard garden to the north of Court Cottage. The approach to Sheriff Hutton Castle is up a drive from the village road and at the top of the drive on the right there are three substantial garages. Immediately in front is a small walled and lawned garden with vegetable plot and summer house, and the drive sweeps round to the front of the main house where there is a gravelled parking area.
The main area of ground owned with the Estate comprises the castle courtyard, which provides a private lawned area of over ½ acre, dominated by the castle ruins. The land falls away to the south, affording glorious views to the Vale of York, well screened by mature trees and including the paddock land and original fishponds which were once farmed by the inhabitants of the castle. The land falls away also to the west and enfolds the property round to the north of the courtyard buildings to provide further grazing.
The whole setting provides excellent amenity land totalling some 11acres.
Sheriff Hutton
The village of Sheriff Hutton itself stands some 10 miles due north of York, where the Vale of York begins to climb towards the Howardian Hills. As one would expect, the castle occupies a prominent and lofty position and of course there are superb views in all directions. The village supports a thriving community, with a church, village hall, choice of pubs and garages, excellent primary school, post office/shop, wine shop, sports field and bus service.
Sales particulars received from the estate agents today in pdf format. I've had to split it into five sections because I was unable to upload the file in such large chunks.
Hard copy is being mailed to me for my collection.
Three more old photo postcards of Sheriff Hutton Castle.
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