shucks!
You've been reading the Statistical accounts! Yes the letters were reportedly carved onto a series of crosses around the parish.
Temple lands were usually small scattered holdings, the theory being that to concentrate them in one area and to hold large portions of land would also have concentrated their power. This is a plausible theory since the power of the Templars eventually brought about their downfall and there was considerable concern over their influence. They also acted as a banking organisation and much of the nobility in Europe owed them mortagages etc, particularly France, whose king initiated the heresy charges against the order rather than face up to an enormous debt.
Another possible mode of development of their land holding pattern is that landowners gifted them portions of land in lieu of debt, and given the wide influence they held, and the comparitive poverty of Scotland as a nation, these gifts were small.
Remember also that many of the religious references in place names in the area may relate to land holdings by the various priories, abbeys ,the Archdiocese of St Andrews and Dunkeld, who all held sway in the area. These would not explain the Templeland reference.

EDGARS OF INCHGALL, FIFE, AND EDINBURGH

In the Act of the Scottish Parliament passed in 1585, in favour of Lord Maxwell, designed Earl of Morton, many Edgar’s are mentioned, among others Thomas Edgar of Bowhouse, and his sons John and Clement. Thomas Edgar was probably the father of Edward Edgar, by whom was purchased, in 1604, the barony of Inchgall, in Fife, an acquisition soon lost.

This branch of the Dumfriesshire family was powerful in Edinburgh, and had lands in other parts of the country ; and the common origin of these branches is indicated on a tombstone in the churchyard of Holywood, which represents the arms of Maxwell of Cowhill impaled with those of Edgar of Wedderlie: the deceased is styled the husband of Barbara Maxwell.

The barony of Lochore was formerly called Inchgall or Inchgaw; that barony or the western part of it formed the parish of Ballingry. In the reign of Charles 1. this barony reverted to the Wardlaws, who then parted with it, and about fifty years later it came into the possession of a family named Malcolm; it is now the property of Lady Scott, relict of Colonel Sir Walter Scott; Bart., son of the great novelist. The old tower is in part remaining, but the lake which surrounded it has been drained.

LOCHORE. From Lochore in the parish of Ballingry, Fife. The family of Lochore had their seat on an island in the loch (now drained), and the fact that this site was also known as 'Inchgall,' island of the foreigners, indicates a Gaelic-speaking population in the vicinity at the time of its occupation by new lords in the second half of the twefith century (Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments, Eleventh report, p. xlii). Constantine de Lochor witnessed a gift by Duncan, earl of Fife, to the nuns of North Berwick before 1177 (CMN., 6), and as Costentin (for Costentin) de Lochor he witnessed a charter by Ernaldus, bishop of St. Andrews, between 1160-62(RPSA., p. 128). Philip de Lochor was one of the assize of marches in Fife 1230 (RD., 196). Constantinus de Lochor acknowledged in 1235 that he had no right to the lands of Kinglassin (Kinglassie) and Pethbokin (Petbachly) near Dunfermline (ibid., p. 101). Andreas de Lochor, his uncle, and Philip de Lochor, his brother, are named as witnesses in the charter. David de Lochor witnessed a fift Of 105. annually to the monks of Dunfermline, 1231 (ibid., p. 108), and in 1242 he witnessed a confirmation charter of Alexander n (REA., ii, p. 273). He is probably- the David de Louchor mentioned in a quitclaim of the lands of Drumkarauch, 1260 (RPSA., p. 346), and is in record as sheriff of Fife in 1264-66 (ER., i, p. 4, 31, 34). David de Louchor witnessed a charter by Gamelin, bishop of St. Andrews, 1269 (RPSA., p. 174), and as David de Lothar (for Lochar, c misread as t) he is mentioned in a mandate by the bishops of St. Andrews and Aberdeen in 1264 (Pap. Lett., i~ p. 408). David de Louchof witnessed a charter byAlexander 111 at Rokesburg, 1279 (RD., p. 53; see more on this David in Inchcolm, p. 143-144). Constantine de Logher, sheriff of Fife, who swore fealty to Edward 1 in 1291, was in 1296, along with Hugh de Loghore, among the Scots prisoners taken in Dunbar Castle (Bain, ir, 508, 742). In 1305 Constantin de Loghore was juror on an inquisition made at Perth (ibid., 1670), and Hugh de Locwor, probably the above-mentioned Hugh, was witness to the homage of Duncan, twelfth Earl of Fife to the abbot of Dunfermline, 1316 (RD., 349). David de Louhore appears in 1328 (ER., i, p. 84), and again c. 1328-32 as David de Louchqwore among the witnesses to a charter by Michael de Wemys (Soltre, p. 48). Philip de Lowchqwor umquhile lord of the third part of Pitfirrane is in record, 1435 (Pitfirrane, 21). Jonet Lochequoir in St. Andrews was executed for witchcraft, 1595 (St. Andrews, p. 800). Margaret Lochoir was retoured heir of her father, William Lochoir, burgess of Kinghorne, 1608 .( Retours, Fife, 195), and the Rev. Charles Lochore was minister of Drymen from 1824 to 1877. In the Dunfermline Burgh Records (ed. Beveridge) the Lochquhor, Lochtqto and Lokqwhor.

From George F Black, The Surnames of Scotland

The skilled recorders of early Scottish history were the monks. Andrew of Wyntoun, a canon of St Andrews in Fife, completed his Cronykil in 1406, setting down facts in sequence, and embroidering them with old fables and older myths.

And although these 3 references to our Robert occur in the same book, the type of reference, and the fact Duncan presents all 3 as being entirely uncontroversial mean that at the moment I am willing to trust them

http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&...dC9Vc#PPT121,M1
Here is one volume of Cardonnel's work. Lochore Castle is not pictured in this volume, but since MacGibbon and Ross mention only Cardonnel and Grose specifically as sources of images, then I can only assume it was in another volume, not illustrated here.

If you can trace a copy of Andrew Wynton's chronicle of scotland, that might tell you. Wynton was prior of St Serf's, but was typical in embellishing the facts.

Sorry to be going back a few pages, but checking back to the thread on Adam de Cardonnel, his works were published in four volumes, the first two in 1788, and the second two in 1793. That would date the engraving / print shown within this thread as being published in 1793, since it does not appear in either of the first two volumes.

1792. Adam de Cardonnel was in Kinross in the autumn of this year

on his tour, collecting materials for his work, "Picturesque

Antiquities of Scotland, etched by Adam Cardonnel." In this work

there is a small exterior view of the castle, with the followin

g meagre remarks:

"The castle of which this view is given, is built on a small

island, situated almost in the middle of Lochleven. By whom, or at

what period it was erected, is not known. In the reign of Robert III.

a grant was made of it from the crown to Douglas, laird

of Lochleven. This island is famous for being the place of captivity

of Mary, Queen of Scots, and the ruins of a small building are shown

as her prison. Besides this there are the remains of a chapel and a

square tower, consisting of a dungeon, and three

stories of apartments above, the whole encompassed with a wall."

According to an old fly-leaf note, Niel Gow"the famous

Niel"was at Kinross House, end of this year, "discoursing sweet

music." There are several old notices of Niel. When he arrived at a

place it was quite an event, he became the lion of the place; cro

wds turned out to see Scotland's first fiddler, the man who would not

play second fiddle to any one. He also appears, according to a "bard

of the period," to have been a merry, hearty, jovial old gentleman

"As merry an old sowl

As e'er lifted a glass, or fathom'd a bowl!"

About this period Robert Burgonensis made an attempt to deprive the Culdees of St Serf's Isle of certain possessions. The affair was left to arbitration, and upon a solemn hearing of the case the "Seniors" of Fife, among whom was Monchad, of venerable age, were sworn in evidence.

We shall also study some of the notitiae from the Book of Deer, and the dispute between Sir Robert Burgonensis and the Culdees of Lochleven (c.1128).

He is probably DUSTAH ("f" misread as long "s") "sacerdus et abbas" probably a Culdee Abbot of S.Serf's, who appears as a witness to the settlement of a dispute between the Culdees of Locheven and Robert Burgonensis in the reign of David 1 (RPSA, p.118). As forename; Duthacus de Carnegy 1410 (REB, i.27); Duthac Ker was burgess of Edinburgh, 1482 (Neubotle, 304) and Duthac Rutherforde was killed 1495 (Trials, 1, p.20).

Surname: Burgin
Recorded in many spellings including Burgoin, Burgoyne, Burgan, Burgen, Burgin, Burgwin, Burgwyn, Burgyn, and others, it is of French origins and locational. It derives from the place name Burgandy and describes a person from that region. First introduced into England in 1066 by followers of Duke William of Normandy, later to be known to history as "William, the Conqueror". The derivation is from a pre 5th century Gaulish tribe called the Burgundii, who invaded Northern France in 480 a.d. The surname is first recorded in the famous Domesday Book of England in 1086, when Walter Burgoin was granted lands in the county of Devonshire. In Scotland the earliest recorded namebearer was Robert Burgonensis, who according to the ancient rolls known as the "Cartarum prioratus Sancti Andrew", was in 1128, accused of rapacity by the monks of St. Serf's island, Loch Leven! Less contentiously Adam de Burgoine appears in the Subsidy Tax register of the city of London in 1319, Edward Burgin was christened at All Hallows church, London Wall, on January 8th 1665, and Thomas Burgwyn at St Mary Mounthaw, in the city of London, on March 11th 1781. General John Burgoyne, who was both an author and soldier, capitulated to George Washington at the battle of Saratoga in 1777. This action was to lead to the final American victory and independance. Throughout the centuries, surnames in every country have continued to "develop", often leading to astonishing variants of the original spelling.

'M Merlet suggests that he was the 'Seigneur de sable, troisieme fils d'un autre Robert de Bourgignon, Seigneur de Sable qui s'etait croise en 1096' (Laurie p330)

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth

I've just found the same source without checking here first, check 1127.


Is Robert Burgonensis the same man?
This leads us to http://www.law.ed.ac.uk/file_download/cour...courseguide.doc

which gives the source.
He also appears in http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hotel/old1/cornb35.html


...and his name equates to the Burgundian, http://www.surnamedb.com/surname.aspx?name=Burgin
giving us another source, so it seems Duncan was spot on.
He was found guilty, as par 117 here tells us.

Black, previously quoted in Surnames of Scotland under Burgon, tells us that our Robert was a frequent witness to charters early in the reign of David 1, and tells us that
Which I think translates as 'Lord of the Sand, third son of another Robert of Burgandy Lord of the Sand who crossed (or took the cross?)in 1096', but my French is poor.
He is also mentioned here but my latin is worse than my french.
We only need confirmation that he owned Lochore at that time, and I think given the support for John's original find, we could just about take that as read.
If you can read latin and gaelic, the text of the book of deer is here as photographs of the pages, http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/book_of_deer/introduction.html

Interestingly at the end of the 12thc there is a Robert de Sable who was a Grand Master of the Templars, but I doubt there's a connection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_IV_de_Sabl%C3%A9

I've found Grose's image of Lochore Castle.
Click to view attachment

... and the text from his book.
Click to view attachment

Lochore (Loch Orr) Castle is featured in his second volume, published in 1791 (the first volume being published in 1789).

I have a number of the images from Grose's book in my collection, and from what I can discern, his images are relatively accurate. Gordon may dispute this, but it might be difficult to prove otherwise.

John,

If you go into The Book Reviews section, you will find I have provided weblinks for Grose's first two volumes - Lochore Castle being in the second. You will need patience while it loads, but you may find these tomes interesting.

Fleance as we all know was a character in Macbeth.
Check these out.
Alan Fitzflaad
Walter Fitzalan
Rea geneology
The English descendants of Alan became Earls of Arundel.

Andrew, the Grose print is brilliant, well found.

although not explicitly stated, is implied

Lochore's Robert was related to these others

certainly, though not proven.
Whilst you may accept that, and Duncan's statement that he owned Lochore, qualify anything your write by including =words such as 'likely' or 'probable' until you can see categoric proof, or else mark your reference for the statement.

Craoc

I was taught to be critical and analytical of any source I encountered; I think the fact that this is local stuff, and I desperately want this place to be exciting (with Roman attacks, the Knights Templar etc etc) may have clouded my judgment slightly

There's another little piece in the puzzle for me, Robert Croc was a knight vassal of Walter Fitzalan, who granted him the lands of Neilston in Renfrewshire, with his principal seat at what became Crookston (Croc's town). The Stewarts, or at least the Darnley branch of the family later got it back, and during their time there became Earls of Lennox, and the eldest son carried the title Lord Darnley...but then we all know that story!

I think I'm going to be stuck in the library indefinetely!

Some more links with titbits of alleged data which note the names of the Lohore's in later centuries.
http://bally.fortunecity.com/carlow/97/wemyss2.html
http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/scottishstudies/...s/Lascelles.pdf
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xVQLAAA...;hl=en#PPA92,M1
http://www.perthshireheritage.co.uk/Wemyss...f%20Wemyss.html
http://www.cranntara.org.uk/moray.htm
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/ig...r&id=I13990
and a few extracts on local history
http://www.benarty.org.uk/historical-info.html

The Clan Malcolm family resided at Lochlore Castle since 1656. [1] [2] The Malcolm family came into possession of the barony of Inchgall in 1656 and set about changing the names of several long established features to that of Lochore Castle.

Ratification for [David Wemyss], earl of Wemyss etc.
Our sovereign lord, with advice and consent of his estates of parliament, ratifies and approves the charter made and granted by his majesty under his highness's great seal of this kingdom, to his majesty's right trusty cousin and councillor David, earl of Wemyss, lord Elcho, and the male heirs lawfully procreated or to be procreated of his body, which failing to whatsoever person or persons the said earl of Wemyss shall please nominate and destined to succeed to him in the lands and others under-written, at whatsoever time of his life whether sick or whole or upon his death bed, and failing of the foresaid nomination and destination to be made by the said earl of Wemyss in his lifetime, then and in that case to the said earl of Wemyss his nearest and lawful male heirs whatsoever heritably, of all and sundry the lands, baronies and others after-specified, to wit all and sundry the barony of Wemyss, comprehending the lands and others after-mentioned, namely, the lands of Wemyss-shire, with the castle, tower, fortalice, manor place and mains thereof, Little Lun, Tullybreck, Cameronmill and haugh, with the parts, pendicles and pertinents of the same, lying within the sheriffdom of Fife; all and whole the lands of West Dron, Dron Hill with the parts, pendicles and pertinents of the same, lying within the sheriffdom of Perth; all and whole the lands of Kinnaird, with tenants, tenandries and service of free tenants of the same, lying within the foresaid sheriffdom of Perth; all and whole the towns and harbours of Wemyss erected of old in a free burgh of barony and free sea port, with the yearly free fairs and weekly markets of the same burgh of barony, together with all and sundry liberties, privileges, immunities, tolls, customs, anchorages, casualties, duties and commodities whatsoever pertaining and belonging to the foresaid burgh of barony, free fairs and weekly markets thereof and free sea port of the same, with all their pertinents; all and whole the lands of Raith, Powguild and Glenniston, with tenants, tenandries and service of free tenants, of all and sundry the foresaid lands with the pertinents, all lying within the said sheriffdom of Fife; all and whole the lands of Elcho with the castle, tower, fortalice, manor place and mains thereof, houses, biggings, yards, orchards, parts, pendicles and all their pertinents, the lands of Bachabroun† with the insh and fishings thereof, the lands of Craigtoun, with parts, pendicles and whole pertinents of the same, lying within the foresaid sheriffdom of Perth, which are held and were held of old by the said earl of Wemyss and his predecessors immediately of his majesty and his most royal progenitors; all and whole the dominical lands or mains of the grange of Elcho, not only comprehending therein the lands of the mains of the grange of Elcho, but also comprehending therein all and whole those twenty-four acres of land called the Cotterland of Wester Elcho, with the houses, biggings, yards, tofts, crofts and whole pertinents pertaining to the said twenty-four acres of land, together with the mill and salmon fishing thereof, which were held of old of the monastery of Elcho, and also, all and sundry the teind sheaves and other teinds whatsoever of all and sundry the foresaid lands and teinds of the mains of Elcho, and of the said twenty-four acres of land, mill and fishing which were held of old of the foresaid monastery of Elcho, all lying within the diocese of St Andrews and sheriffdom of Perth above-mentioned; and all and whole the office of bailiary of all and whole the lands and possessions whatsoever which pertained of old or may be known to pertain to the foresaid monastery of Elcho, with the little meadow which lies contiguously with the said lands of Easter Elcho upon the west part with the pertinents, together with all and sundry liberties, privileges, casualties, profits and duties pertaining and belonging to the foresaid office of bailiary particularly and generally mentioned, and expressed in the infeftments made to the deceased Sir John Wemyss of that ilk, knight, great grandfather to the deceased John, earl of Wemyss that last deceased, which all and sundry the lands and others above-mentioned, are united and erected in a whole and free barony called the barony of Wemyss; all and whole the barony of East Wemyss, comprehending therein the lands and mains of East Wemyss, with the tower, fortalice, manor place, yards, orchards, dovecots and pertinents thereof whatsoever, the lands of Kirkton, the lands of Windyedge, the lands of Harlaw, the town and lands of Buckhaven and all other parts and pendicles whatsoever of the foresaid lands and barony of East Wemyss, lying within the parish of Wemyss, with mills, woods, fishings, tenants, tenandries, service of free tenants thereof, coals, coalheughs of the same, and with the advocation, donation and right of patronage of the chaplainry called St Katherine's Chapel situated within the kirk of Wemyss; all and whole the lands of Spittal, Cartmore and Dundonald (except the lands and tenantry of Glassmount only) with tenants, tenantries and service of free tenants of the same, and all their pertinents lying in the barony of Lochoreshire, which of old was annexed to the foresaid barony of East Wemyss, all lying within the said sheriffdom of Fife, with special and full power and privilege to the said earl of Wemyss and his above-written, to win and dig coals and coalheughs within the seaflood, within the whole bounds above-rehearsed, and also to dig and hold saltpans within any part of the same bounds between the Podlockcraig and the burn of Denburne,† as shall seem most expedient to them; as also all and whole the lands of Cameron, with the manor place, houses, biggings, yards, orchards, tofts, crofts, outsets, parts, pendicles and pertinents thereof, with coals and coalheughs of the same and with the corn mill of Cameron, mill-lands, multures, sequels and all their pertinents, lying within the stewartry of Fife and sheriffdom thereof above-rehearsed as for the principal, and likewise, of all and whole the lands and barony of Tillicoultry namely, Balchartie, Drummie, Shannock, Coishmachtane, Columsdavoch, with the corn mill of Cairntoun, with the waulk mill Ellock, Davock and Herviesdavock, the lands of Hilton of Tillicoultry, with the tower, fortalice, manor place, houses, biggings, yards, orchards, parts, pendicles and their pertinents whatsoever, lying within the sheriffdom of Clackmannan and that in special warrandice and security of the infeftment of warrandice made and granted by the deceased James [Colville], lord Colville that last deceased to Robert Colville of Cleish, his heirs and assignees heritably of the foresaid lands and lands of the mains of East Wemyss with the pertinents and in warrandice of the lands of Wester Cleish with the pertinents, lying within the foresaid sheriffdom of Fife, made over by the said deceased James, lord Colville to the said Robert Colville of Cleish and his above-written, as the rights and securities made to them thereupon at more length purports, so that if the said earl of Wemyss or his above-specified shall be troubled or molested in the peaceable possession, bruiking and enjoying of the foresaid lands and barony of East Wemyss, or any part thereof, or if the same or any part thereof shall happen to be evicted from them by order of law, by virtue of the infeftment of warrandice above-mentioned granted to the said Robert Colville of Cleish, as is above-expressed only and no otherwise, then and in that case the said earl of Wemyss and his above-specified shall have full and free regress, ingress and access in and to the foresaid lands and barony of Tillicoultry, comprehending therein the lands, mills and others particularly above-written, with their pertinents proportionally and pro rata corresponding to the foresaid perturbation or eviction until such time as the said earl of Wemyss or his above-rehearsed shall peaceably bruik and enjoy the foresaid lands and barony of East Wemyss with the pertinents, without any perturbation or impediment, all united and incorporated in a whole and free barony called the barony of East Wemyss; of all and whole the lands of Methil and barony thereof with the corn and waulk mills of the same, together with the mill-lands, sequels and astricted multures pertaining thereto; of the lands of Methilhill and Pirnie, with annexes, connexes, parts, pendicles and whole pertinents of the same, with coals and coalheughs of the foresaid lands of Methil, Methilhill and Pirnie, and of the mains of Methil, called the kirklands of Methil, and of all and whole the barony thereof, as well under the earth as above the same, far and near in whatsoever part of the foresaid whole lands respectively and barony of Methil and mill-lands thereof, freely and peaceably, when and as often as they shall think fit, to search, dig and work the same, together with the superiority of the lands of Caldcoats and two parts of the lands of Litlekilmonks, and lands thereof, tenants, tenantries and service of free tenants of the same, together with the office of bailiary and keeping of all and whole the water of Leven and loch of the same water, as it flows and runs in length and breadth to the sea, in the whole parts of the foresaid water, with every ninth fish of salmon taken therein, and whole fees and duties of the same office used and wont, with full and free power to keep courts, create bailies, clerks, serjeants and whole remaining members of court according to use and wont, together with the right and title of the patronage of the parsonage and vicarage of the kirk of Methil within the diocese of St Andrews, with the whole profits and duties thereof, lying in the regality of St Andrews and within the foresaid sheriffdom of Fife; and of all and whole the lands of Lochead, with houses, biggings, coals, coalheughs, stone and lime, the loch of the foresaid lands called Lochgelly, fishings thereof, multures, knaveships, tenants, tenantries, service of free tenants, parts, pendicles and pertinents of the same, lying within the barony of Westerlochorshire, alias Inchgall, and the foresaid sheriffdom of Fife, together also with the style, title, honour and degree of dignity of earl of Wemyss, with all preeminencies, privileges and liberties belonging and pertaining thereto, together also with the confirmation, new gift, new erection, change of holding and others expressed in the foresaid charter and especially without prejudice of the said generality, the power and privilege granted to the said earl of Wemyss, at any time during his lifetime, whether sick or whole or in his death bed, to name and determine whatsoever person or persons he shall think expedient to succeed to him in the whole lands, baronies and others above-mentioned (failing of male heirs lawfully procreated or to be procreated of his own body) and that it shall be rightful to the foresaid person or persons so to be named by him to obtain themselves served, retoured, infeft and seised in the same as heir or heirs of tailzie to him, as as if the foresaid lands and others above-rehearsed were expressly provided to the said person or persons in the case above-mentioned by way of tailzie; with the which and anent all laws and practice of this kingdom made and observed or to be made and observed in the contrary, his majesty, for his highness and his successors, has dispensed forever, as the foresaid charter of the date at Stirling, 22 July 1651, at more length purports; together likewise with the precept and instrument of sasine following thereupon in all and sundry points, articles and clauses therein-contained, after the form and tenor of the same, and declares, statutes and ordains that this present general ratification thereof is and shall be as valid and sufficient, in all respects, as if the same were at length inserted in this present act of parliament, dispensing with the not inserting thereof herein and with all other exceptions and allegations of the law that can be argued or alleged against the validity thereof.
NAS. PA2/26, 174-177. Back
Possibly 'Balhepburn' on the Tay. Back
Perhaps 'Denbrae'. Back
Popup Close
NAS. PA2/26, 174-177.

Judicial procedure: quitclaim of a suit
In A.D. 1255, when David de Lochore, then sheriff of Perth, had begged four merks from the abbot and convent of Dunfermline for the needs of the lord king for the default of a suit at the court of the sheriffdom of Perth concerning the lands of Fordie,† Couttie,† Bendochy, Little Keithock, Inchturfin and Dummernech,† at length, at the instance of the same abbot and convent the lord king caused an inquisition to be made in the presence of Alexander Comyn, earl of Buchan, then justiciar of Scotia, by many barons, whether the said suit ought to happen concerning these lands or not. Having made diligent and faithful inquest concerning this said matter thereafter, Sir Gilbert de Hay, bringing about the said inquest, was present in the full colloquium of the lord king held at Holyrood on the twentieth day of the nativity of the Lord in the same year, [and] pronounced that the verdict of the barons was that they [would] see any men from the foresaid lands [who came] to the said court, but none came there as suitors. By means of which [verdict] the lord king, in the foresaid full colloquium by the common counsel of his magnates present there, altogether quitclaimed this abbot and convent and their men in so far as making the foresaid suit in perpetuity.