Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Lochore Castle
Castle Duncan Forums > CASTLES > SCOTTISH
Pages: 1, 2
JohnC
I'm doing a project on the history of my local area - this is the Castle which was apparantly the centre of the 'manor' (or 'barony', as it is referred to in some literature) of Lochore, once owned by the son of Sir Walter Scott (which explains the fact why lots of streets in the village of Lochore are named after Walter Scott-related things).

Original castle built by Duncan de Lochore during the reign of King Malcolm IV (1153 - 1165). Current structure thought to originate from the 14th (?) century.

Any further information on this castle, original sketches, ownership information etc would be greatly appreciated.

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment
Duncan
Hang tight whilst Gordon digs for info which may take a wee bit as hes been really busy with family.

Very good images and its great to have you here in the forums!!
Any thing we can do just tell us and we'll do our best to help or if something is not working correctly for you let me know.
JohnC
QUOTE (Duncan @ May 3 2008, 10:14 AM) *
Hang tight whilst Gordon digs for info which may take a wee bit as hes been really busy with family.

Very good images and its great to have you here in the forums!!
Any thing we can do just tell us and we'll do our best to help or if something is not working correctly for you let me know.


Thank you very much Duncan - it's great to be here !!

Everything appears to be working splendidly - I must congragtulate you, and those who contribute here, on a most excellent website; already I have spent many happy hours lurking on these forums.

I look forward to seeing what Gordon has to say!

Thanks, John
Gordon
Welcome, and thanks for your enquiry. I'm always glad to provide a full entry for a site not already listed here, and particularly one of those which rarely features elsewhere. Oh, and thanks for the pics, splendid.
Yes, the keep was 14thc, originally of four storeys, and built upon a motte. The name comes from the loch which once surrounded the castle site, but which was drained toward the end of the 18thc. The island was called Inchgall, 'Isle of Strangers'.
Duncan de Lochore founded the site, and his decsendants the Lochore family were still known until at least the 1300's, although the de Valences had gained the estate by about 1296. They had enlarged the castle and strengthened, building the keep in the 14thc.
At some point the Wardlaws of Torrie gained it, and it was 'acquired by the Malcolms of Balbedie in 1656.


From Canmore;
QUOTE
Lochore Castle
Alternative Names: Inchgall Castle; Loch Ore; Inchgall Loch
Type of Site: Castle
NMRS Number: NT19NE 1
Map reference: NT 1753 9588
Parish: Ballingry
Council: Fife
Former District: Dunfermline
Former Region: Fife

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Archaeology Notes
NT19NE 1 17532 95883

(NT 1753 9588) Lochore Castle (NR) (In Ruins)
OS 6" map, (1920).

Lochore Castle is situated on a mound at the east end of what was formerly a sheet of water, Loch Ore or 'Inchgall Loch' drained at the end of the 18th century .
Present appearances suggest that the original castle had been of the motte-and-bailey type and that the motte-hill was reduced in height before the present tower of stone was built. The base of the mound has been enclosed by a barmkin of coursed rubbl e, now fragmentary and nowhere more than 10ft in height but still traceable all round. At the north-eastern, north western and south-eastern angles there have been small rounded towers, which seem to have been added in the 16th century and are now almost demolished. The entrance to the barmkin enclosure was on the/ the north-west through an arched doorway. The tower probably dates from the 14th century. To the north and west of the tower lie the foundations of later outbuildings.
RCAHMS 1933.

Loch ore Castle was apparently approached from the east along a causeway which is reported to have been in existence some years ago.
D MacGibbon and T Ross 1899.

Sir Duncan de lochore in the time of Malcolm IV (1153-65) was the builder of a baronial castle at Lochore.
It is quite certain that the present ruin was no part of it.
A H Millar 1895.

Lochore Castle is in ruinous condition: the description in RCAHMS 1933 is correct. The tower and barmkin are situated on a mound possibly the remains of a motte. The raised enclosure W of the tower, suggested as a possible bailey by RCAHMS would appear to be comparatively recent: small quarries reveal that it is apparently composed of ash, cinder, etc.
Visited by OS (AC) 13 March 1959.

'Adam de Vallance w ho was descended from an Anglo-Norman family married the elder daughter and heiress of Sir David Lochore, some time prior to 1296 and may have lived for a short time in Lochore Castle which by then was becoming obsolete (at site of Chapel Farm (NT19NE 4 and 5). He built a tower-house on the island of Inchgall shortly afterwards which was occupied about the year 1308 when it became known as the Castle of Inchgall.
Charter references to Inchgall Castle are noted in 1384, 1393, 1407, c.1410 and 1547 when d uring the Herifords invasion of Scotland, Inchgall Castle heads a list of " the four strongest Castles in Fife".
The Malcolm family came into possession of the barony of Inchgall in 1656 and set about changing the names of several long established featur es to that of 'Lochore', all contrary to charter evidence'.
Information contained in a letter from Mr E Henderson, Dunfermline to the OS, 21 March 1997, subsequently passed to RCAHMS, April 1997
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
References
MacGibbon and Ross, D and T (1887-92 )
The castellated and domestic architecture of Scotland from the twelfth to the eighteenth centuries,
5v, Edinburgh, Vol.3, 241-4,
Millar, A H (1895 )
Fife: pictorial and historical: its people, burghs, castles and mansions',
2v, Cupar, Edinburgh and Glasgow, Vol.2, 80-90,
RCAHMS (1933 )
The Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments and Constructions of Scotland. Eleventh report with inventory of monuments and constructions in the counties of Fife, Kinross, and Clackmannan
Edinburgh, 30-1, No.54,


and
QUOTE
Archaeology Notes
NT19NE 5 1671 9623.

(Name NT 1671 9623) Site of Roman Camp (NR)
OS 6" map, (1920).

Supposed Roman camp, Lochore, Ballingry. The Form of this Camp is nearest to a square, but in many parts levelled and defaced .... however, there appears on the W est side of it, three rows of ditches and as many ramparts of earth and stone, and on the side towards the Loch, is a round turret entirely analogous with Camp at Burnswark Hill (Dumfries 51 SE1). The total circumference of it (the camp) measures 2020 fee t. To the south of the camp there is a large morass or moss. (A Gordon 1726).
Maitland (W Maitland 1757) gives the length as 250 yards and the breadth 'about eighty' and says that it was bounded 'with a rampart on all sides but the southern, which is b ounded by Lochore.. Maitland adds that 'within the camp is the remains of an ancient chapel (NT19NE 4). Roy (W Roy 1793) described it as a Roman post 'of the stationary kind' big enough for 'a cohort or two only'. Lt Col Miller (Lt Col Miller 1857) says t he ramparts were levelled about 1817 when a farm steading was put there. He adds that 'upon levelling the trenches, although the burnt ends of the palisades were found, no bones or arms ... were discovered'.
I visited Lochore in July 1925, and was able to locate three parallel ditches on the north side visible both as depressions and as belts of darker green grass in a hayfield. The outermost ditch could be traced for a length of about 800 feet; the western portion was visible as a belt of darker green oats. The other two ditches are visible only in the eatern field, for a length of about 400 feet. The outer ditch turns south-eastwards at the east end, forming a slightly rounded corner. At a distance from the corner of a little more than 100 feet is a b reak and a causeway. The ditch then continues for about another 100 feet where it appears to stop. The length of the east side is about 300 feet.
About 400 feet south-west of Chapel Farm is a clump of trees. On the west of this are three sides of an enc losure, visible as green lines in oats (length of sides about 200ft.) There is a gap in the south-west corner.
The remains described and seen do not conform to those on any mediaeval site I know, and the fact that the chief mediaeval defensive site, the important site of Lochore (NT19NE 1 ), is half a mile distant to the east-south-east on the other side of the now-drained loch, seems against a mediaeval origin. Further evidence is needed before the remains can be considered Roman.
O G S Crawford 1949 ; OSA 1793; RCAHMS 1933.

The site, trenched by Mr Henderson, of Glencraig, is not Roman.
CBA (5th Report) 1950, 9.

Trial trenches were dug at Chapel Farm on behalf of the Lochgelly Antiquarian Society: a number of ditches were located but no dat able finds were made. Dr Wainwright visited the site and suggested that it was probably mediaeval. Mr Henderson (CBA Report 1950) has left the district. (Information from Mr J Westwater, Station Road, Lochgelly). The site was under water when visited. the crop marks would appear to have enclosed the raised area on which Chapel Farm is placed. The situation, low-lying ground on the edge of Loch Ore and subject to flooding, is a poor tactical position for a Roman Fort: it is also overlooked by higher groun d to the north.
The meagre evidence suggests a homestead moat with possible manor-house and chapel. (see NT19NE 4).
Visited by OS(AC) 13 March 1959.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
References
Crawford, O G S (1949 )
Topography of Roman Scotland north of the Antonine Wall,
Cambridge, 144-6,
Gordon, A (1726 )
Itinerarium septentrionale: or a journey thro' most of the counties of Scotland and those in the north of England,
London, 36,
Maitland, W (1757 )
The history and antiquities of Scotland, from the earliest account of time to the death of James the First, anno 1437,
London, Vol.1, 215,
Miller, Lieut-Col (1857 )
'An inquiry respecting the site of the Battle of Mons Grampius',
Archaeol Scot, 4, 1857, Vol.4, 26,
OSA (1791-9 )
The statistical account of Scotland, drawn up from the communications of the ministers of the different parishes,
Sinclair, J (Sir), Edinburgh, Vol.7, 315,
RCAHMS (1933 )
The Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments and Constructions of Scotland. Eleventh report with inventory of monuments and constructions in the counties of Fife, Kinross, and Clackmannan
Edinburgh, 32, No.57,
Roy, W (1793 )
The military antiquities of the Romans in Britain,
London, 82-3,
Gordon
..and From MacGibbon & Ross,
QUOTE
LOCH ORE CASTLE, FIFESHIRE.

This somewhat remarkable structure is situated about one mile north from Lochgelly Railway Station, in the parish of Ballingry. The castle stood on an island about 100 paces distant from the south-east edge of Loch Ore, which formerly extended about one and a half miles in length by a quarter of a mile in breadth, but is now drained. The island rose above the water to a height of about 10 feet, and extended outside the walls an average distance of 8 paces.


Click to view attachment
The castle consists of a central keep (Fig. 176), surrounded by an enclosing wall. The latter is of a rudely oval form on Plan, and measures from cast to west, along the greatest diameter, about 124 feet, and 104 from north to south. The castle was apparently approached from the east along a causeway which is reported to have been in existence some years ago. The main entrance through the enclosing wall was in the west side, or on the opposite side from the approach. The bar-hole in one side of the gateway is still visible, and in the view of the castle in Grose's Antiquities, the gateway is shown, round arched and entire, in
this position. Parties approaching the castle would thus have to traverse the circuit of the island before gaining admittance, and from the nature of the ground outside the walls, the access would be naturally by the north side, which is commanded by a projecting round tower at the north-east corner of the enclosing wall. This is the only tower attached to the wall. It has three loopholes, 2 inches wide and 2 feet 2 inches high, of the form shown on Fig. 176. There was a postern adjoining the round tower, and commanded by it. This postern is shown in Cardonnel's Antiquities of Scotland as having a round arch with a defence on the top of the wall projected on corbels.

The keep, which is almost square on Plan, occupies the centre of the enclosure. It measures about 34 feet by 35 feet 6 inches. None of the floors were vaulted. The ground floor is entirely buried beneath the ruins and cannot be seen. The first floor is the one shown on the Plan (Fig. 176). The entrance to the ground floor is on the west side adjoining the north wall. There is also a doorway to the first floor on the same side at the south end, leading directly into the keep (see Plan), and passing, strangely enough, through the arched fireplace, which occupies the whole west end of the keep. This entrance has a bar-hole. There are no traces of a stair between the first floor and ground floor, nor from the first floor to the floor above, so that these were probably of timber; but from the second floor to the battlements a stair runs up in the thickness of the south wall. It entered on the second floor (see Plan) through a pointed doorway; adjoining this is an opening into the flue of the fireplace beneath, which does not appear to have been screened off with a stone partition, although there may have been one of timber; but taken in connection with the fact that there is only one fireplace in the keep, this flue may have been left open on this side so as to give the second floor the benefit of whatever heat could be got in that way. Or there may have been a door at this point into the vent, which was possibly used as a place for curing hams, &c., as in some other instances, such as Elphinstone. There was a third floor partly in the roof.

To the north and west of the keep buildings existed, extending between the keep and the wall of enceinte, but nothing remains of them above 3 or 4 feet in height. That on the north side is shown by Cardonnel as terminating with a crow-stepped gable to the north. On the west front of the keep the raglet for the roof of a building is cut on the face of the wall.

On the east face of the keep, fronting the approach to the island, there has been some kind of projecting structure at the second floor level. A part of its projecting edge (see Second Floor Plan) still exists, and seems to have been, in part at least, a garde-robe.

Complete ruin and desolation have overtaken Loch Ore Castle in the course of the nineteenth century (Fig. 177). In the views by Cardonnel and Grose it is shown in a much more perfect condition. The walls of enceinte are represented as entire, and they remained so within the memory of persons now living, till the removal of the earth outside brought the greater part of them down. The total ruin of the whole wall and keep itself seems imminent unless means are promptly taken to avert it.

Great antiquity is claimed for this castle. Grose, Cardonnel, and others suppose it to have been built in the twelfth century by Duncan de Lochore. The estate was then doubtless in the hands of that proprietor, and seems to have remained in the possession of this family till, as Grose tells us, in the reign of Robert 1, it "fell to the son of a gentleman, Adam de Valloniis, who had married a daughter of the Barons of Lochor.


Click to view attachment
It continued in this family for a considerable time, and then came to Sir Andrew Wardlaw of Torry, who married the eldest daughter of D. Jacobus de Valloniis, in whose family it remained till the time of King Charles I' All the above authorities and the Old Statistical Account agree in saying that over the chief entry to the tower is inscribed " Robertus de Wardlaw." It is thus quite clear that he must have been the builder of the castle, probably during the fifteenth century. The character of the keep corresponds with that date, and the enclosing wall, which is only 3 feet in thickness, has no resemblance to the older walls of enceinte of the First Period.
JohnC
That's excellent Gordon, absolutely fantastic!

May I ask what 'Canmore' is? I assume it's a book, and I'm hoping you can give me the title so I can order it from somewhere; it seems to contain some excellent stuff.

Thanks again, you've given me a lot to sink my teeth into!

John

edit: Oh and by the way, the Loch that was drained has now been refilled, it had been full of slag heaps etc (a by product of the intense mining which occurred in this part of Fife over the past 100 years or so) but was refilled in the 80's and is now the centrepiece of Lochore Meadows Country Park - just an additional bit of info! Nice to see History coming full-circle like this...
JohnC
I wrote the above post without fully reading all of what you gave me Gordon - the additional information regarding the Roman Camp is magnificent, I've been searching for more on this for awhile now to no avail and I finally have something which adds to the information I already have - thank you again Gordon, you've made me a very happy bunny!

Where do you find these gems? smile.gif smile.gif

Duncan
Where he has the images and info from MacGibbon & Ross refers to two artists from the 1800's and their books. You might have seen this all ready but there's more info about this pair here in the intro of this forum.
http://www.castleduncan.com/forum/index.php?showforum=163

and Canmore -- http://www.rcahms.gov.uk/search.html.
He can guide and help you far more then I can on that site.

then theres his book that has excellent info and images as well as the many other books hes contributed too.
Gordon
Yes, Canmore is the database of the Royal Commision for Ancient Monuments for Scotland, registration is free, as it is for their other useful sites, such as Pastmap.
The problem with Canmore is that it quotes reports and many available texts, often the interpretation within texts may not be 100%, Sources often conflict. History is open to your own interpretation, the more you read, the more you'll realsize that 'historical fact' requires critical analysis.
You will have noticed differing interpretations even within what I posted above.
You may also find the Statistical Accounts useful http://edina.ac.uk/statacc/
Go to the bottom link 'browse scanned pages. You can choose which account and which parish you wish to read about.
Each was written by the local parish minister, and when considering historical fact, remember that although many were well educated, they had to accept the word of others if they had no great historical understanding of their own.
Go Here, the most useful links for you are in post 9.
and Here for some good books, many of which will require a large outlay, or a visit to an excellent regional library.
JohnC
QUOTE (Duncan @ May 4 2008, 12:52 AM) *
Where he has the images and info from MacGibbon & Ross refers to two artists from the 1800's and their books. You might have seen this all ready but there's more info about this pair here in the intro of this forum.
http://www.castleduncan.com/forum/index.php?showforum=163

and Canmore -- http://www.rcahms.gov.uk/search.html.
He can guide and help you far more then I can on that site.

then theres his book that has excellent info and images as well as the many other books hes contributed too.


Thank you Duncan, much appreciated.
JohnC
QUOTE (Gordon @ May 4 2008, 09:34 PM) *
Yes, Canmore is the database of the Royal Commision for Ancient Monuments for Scotland, registration is free, as it is for their other useful sites, such as Pastmap.
The problem with Canmore is that it quotes reports and many available texts, often the interpretation within texts may not be 100%, Sources often conflict. History is open to your own interpretation, the more you read, the more you'll realsize that 'historical fact' requires critical analysis.
You will have noticed differing interpretations even within what I posted above.
You may also find the Statistical Accounts useful http://edina.ac.uk/statacc/
Go to the bottom link 'browse scanned pages. You can choose which account and which parish you wish to read about.
Each was written by the local parish minister, and when considering historical fact, remember that although many were well educated, they had to accept the word of others if they had no great historical understanding of their own.
Go Here, the most useful links for you are in post 9.
and Here for some good books, many of which will require a large outlay, or a visit to an excellent regional library.



wow a million thank yous Gordon, you've given me much more than I dared to hope for, or even imagined I could find on the net - it's amazing what is available on the net; I can't believe this is the first time I have encountered nearly every source you have directed me too, especially since I used to work at the National Archive in Edinburgh stupid.gif

I have much read.gif read.gif read.gif to do!
Gordon
Enjoy.
Duncan
Worked at the National Archive in Edinburgh Now thats a good topic in itself!!!
Gordon
John, I haven't checked wether I gave you the NLS map collection link, so here is the link to the on-line maps of Fife.
http://www.nls.uk/maps/early/counties.html#fife
Here's a sample of what you can find, from
ca.1636-1652 - Gordon 53: Fyfe Shire, MDCXLII = Fifa provincia noviter delineata / Auctore Jacobo Gordonio fo R.G. a Strathloch. (manuscript)
Click to view attachment
Gordon
Lochore Castle is a scheduled ancient monument.
Click to view attachment
JohnC
QUOTE (Duncan @ May 6 2008, 04:35 PM) *
Worked at the National Archive in Edinburgh Now thats a good topic in itself!!!


I've been working for the Scottish Executive on continuous 9 month contracts, only part of which was spent at the Archive's facility in Charlotte Square. However I'm hoping to get back there for a full 9 months, with a view to a permenant position - if I do manage to get back I think I'll be setting up a camp bed in the vaults and moving in!

It really is a fascinating place, with many gems yet to be uncovered - in the field of the Civil Service it's my dream job!
JohnC
QUOTE (Gordon @ May 6 2008, 09:23 PM) *
Lochore Castle is a scheduled ancient monument.
Click to view attachment


Thanks again Gordon, you are an absolute star!

In regards to my project it would appear scaling the walls of Castle Duncan has been the wisest decision I have made....I would really be lost without all of these sources stupid.gif
AJR
Also, if you want an old print of Lochore Castle try http://www.the-bookshop.com/galleriesdetail.asp?ID=347

Duncan
Everybody here is glad you made it laughlong.gif ... for those who want to come in .... all you have to do is knock wink2.gif Unless you want to scale a wall claps28.gif
JohnC
QUOTE (AJR @ May 7 2008, 12:37 PM) *
Also, if you want an old print of Lochore Castle try http://www.the-bookshop.com/galleriesdetail.asp?ID=347



Thanks Andrew, that print looks excellent.

I wonder if you have any idea if these kinda of prints are artists' impressions of what the castle probably looked like, or if indeed it is a sketch of the structure as it used to appear before time and neglect took their toll?

Whatever it is, it looks like a beautiful thing to have - another 'must have' on payday I suspect....my girlfriend will be thrilled, i'm sure banghead.gif
AJR
Here's two more photographs of Lochore Castle, from my collection of photographs.

These came from David Caw, who hosted the website Caledonian Castles. Apparently his website went off-line mid 2004. The site was unrivalled for photos of Scottish Castles, and I purchased a number of his photographs to fill a few gaps in my collection.
AJR
QUOTE (JohnC @ May 7 2008, 02:45 PM) *
Thanks Andrew, that print looks excellent.

I wonder if you have any idea if these kinda of prints are artists' impressions of what the castle probably looked like, or if indeed it is a sketch of the structure as it used to appear before time and neglect took their toll?


From my experience, they tend mostly to be sketches of how the castle looked at the time. Sometimes though the artist may choose to leave something out because it was in the way.
JohnC
QUOTE (AJR @ May 7 2008, 03:32 PM) *
Here's two more photographs of Lochore Castle, from my collection of photographs.

These came from David Caw, who hosted the website Caledonian Castles. Apparently his website went off-line mid 2004. The site was unrivalled for photos of Scottish Castles, and I purchased a number of his photographs to fill a few gaps in my collection.


Thanks Andrew, those are excellent drunk.gif

Would it be possible for me to download these pics to my PC, with a possible view to including one or both of them on a website or my thesis? I'd let you know if I plan to use any, and reimburse you accordingly - if this is a problem, can I download them simply for my own reference?

QUOTE (AJR @ May 7 2008, 03:36 PM) *
QUOTE (JohnC @ May 7 2008, 02:45 PM) *
Thanks Andrew, that print looks excellent.

I wonder if you have any idea if these kinda of prints are artists' impressions of what the castle probably looked like, or if indeed it is a sketch of the structure as it used to appear before time and neglect took their toll?


From my experience, they tend mostly to be sketches of how the castle looked at the time. Sometimes though the artist may choose to leave something out because it was in the way.


Excellent - the print you showed me is easily the best contemporary rendering I have seen.

Thanks again!

John
Gordon
I wonder if that's the Grose print? Cardonnel's style is different.
I did a quick search on Scran, and there is another print there, though without a full subscription, the thumbnail is indistict.
Now if John happens to have an Athens password which allows access...
http://www.scran.ac.uk/
JohnC
QUOTE (Gordon @ May 7 2008, 05:48 PM) *
I wonder if that's the Grose print? Cardonnel's style is different.
I did a quick search on Scran, and there is another print there, though without a full subscription, the thumbnail is indistict.
Now if John happens to have an Athens password which allows access...
http://www.scran.ac.uk/


Unfortunately I don't, I left uni upon graduation a couple of years back, and am currently working so I can save up some cash before enrolling again for my phD. This does look like a good resource however, so I'll see if I can 'borrow' a friends details...
JohnC
I managed to get in and these are what I could find - is this what you're talking about Gordon?



Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment


edit: The picture (attachment 2) is quite amazing, if you know what the area surrounding the castle looks like today - shows just how much things have changed in the past 50 years or so, or however long ago this pic was taken. The castle is today almost surrounded by trees, wheras in the pic it looks quite solitary, and would have had a much bigger impact on the landscape than it does today, where it seems to merge into the surrounding woods. the hill (is this the motte?) the castle stands on is also much more defined in this pic, and one begins to get an idea of how it would have looked in its heyday when it stood on an island and dominated the surrounding area, both in how and looked and what it represented.

Another excellent souce Gordon, thanks again Yes_Man.gif
Gordon
Thanks John, yes the first image was the one I'd seen, and yes the hill is the ?motte.
Without excavation it's impossible to tell whether it's a natural feature or man made or whether it actually supported a timber castle.
Fantastic pic for the second. I liked the old map drawn by Gordon, since it shows the extent of the original loch, and like Pont before him, the sketch of the castle is probably a pretty accurate reflection of the nature of the structure.
JohnC
QUOTE (Gordon @ May 7 2008, 09:16 PM) *
Thanks John, yes the first image was the one I'd seen, and yes the hill is the ?motte.
Without excavation it's impossible to tell whether it's a natural feature or man made or whether it actually supported a timber castle.
Fantastic pic for the second. I liked the old map drawn by Gordon, since it shows the extent of the original loch, and like Pont before him, the sketch of the castle is probably a pretty accurate reflection of the nature of the structure.


The maps by Gordon are beautiful - but what is the sketch by Pont you refer to? I don't think I have that, unless you mean the sketch which appears on the print supplied by Andrew earlier.
AJR
QUOTE (JohnC @ May 7 2008, 04:52 PM) *
QUOTE (AJR @ May 7 2008, 03:32 PM) *
Here's two more photographs of Lochore Castle, from my collection of photographs.

These came from David Caw, who hosted the website Caledonian Castles. Apparently his website went off-line mid 2004. The site was unrivalled for photos of Scottish Castles, and I purchased a number of his photographs to fill a few gaps in my collection.


Thanks Andrew, those are excellent drunk.gif

Would it be possible for me to download these pics to my PC, with a possible view to including one or both of them on a website or my thesis? I'd let you know if I plan to use any, and reimburse you accordingly - if this is a problem, can I download them simply for my own reference?
John

You can download them if you wish. No charge. If you want to include them in your thesis, I suggest you make reference to where they originally came from. David Caw may re-start the Caledonian Castles website at some stage, although as it's been offline for 4 years now, that is probably unlikely.
AJR
QUOTE (Gordon @ May 7 2008, 05:48 PM) *
I wonder if that's the Grose print? Cardonnel's style is different.
I did a quick search on Scran, and there is another print there, though without a full subscription, the thumbnail is indistict.

I too wondered whether it was from Grose. Most of his engravings tended to have the date of publication and name of artist below the image - something which this does not. I'll look at some of the other images I have on file and make some comparisons.
If it IS Grose's, then the original of Lochore Castle was drawn in 1783 and reproduced in 1791. My initial estimate would put this one as the earlier version, rather than the reproduction. I'm not entirely convinced though.
AJR
Another old photo from http://members.tripod.com/lochgelly3/id11.html

AJR
QUOTE (AJR @ May 8 2008, 09:33 AM) *
QUOTE (Gordon @ May 7 2008, 05:48 PM) *
I wonder if that's the Grose print? Cardonnel's style is different.
I did a quick search on Scran, and there is another print there, though without a full subscription, the thumbnail is indistict.

I too wondered whether it was from Grose. Most of his engravings tended to have the date of publication and name of artist below the image - something which this does not. I'll look at some of the other images I have on file and make some comparisons.
If it IS Grose's, then the original of Lochore Castle was drawn in 1783 and reproduced in 1791. My initial estimate would put this one as the earlier version, rather than the reproduction. I'm not entirely convinced though.

Compare the old print with a couple of Adam de Cardonnel's works. They are very similar. If so, this would date the engraving at around 1786-88.
JohnC
QUOTE (AJR @ May 8 2008, 09:23 AM) *
QUOTE (JohnC @ May 7 2008, 04:52 PM) *
QUOTE (AJR @ May 7 2008, 03:32 PM) *
Here's two more photographs of Lochore Castle, from my collection of photographs.

These came from David Caw, who hosted the website Caledonian Castles. Apparently his website went off-line mid 2004. The site was unrivalled for photos of Scottish Castles, and I purchased a number of his photographs to fill a few gaps in my collection.


Thanks Andrew, those are excellent drunk.gif

Would it be possible for me to download these pics to my PC, with a possible view to including one or both of them on a website or my thesis? I'd let you know if I plan to use any, and reimburse you accordingly - if this is a problem, can I download them simply for my own reference?
John

You can download them if you wish. No charge. If you want to include them in your thesis, I suggest you make reference to where they originally came from. David Caw may re-start the Caledonian Castles website at some stage, although as it's been offline for 4 years now, that is probably unlikely.


Thanks Andrew, that's great. I could of course take my own photos, but the second one which shows part of a wall in the foreground is today obscured by bushes and undergrowth - I never knew it to be so large until I investigated the site again this morning.
JohnC
QUOTE (AJR @ May 8 2008, 11:02 AM) *


Another magnificent photo, thanks again Andrew.

As an aside, I believe the small arched bridge-like structure in the left foreground is the exit of a tunnel which begins at the now demolished Ballingry/Navitie house, doubtless an escape hatch for the aristocracy in times of trouble....actually, it's probably only a drain or something, but I like my interpretation better so I shall be sticking to it stupid.gif

Although the tunnel is today covered in wire mesh, I am planning to make good an entry of some sort to the tunnel and see if it still leads to the house - a distace of perhaps a mile, so no mean feat of engineering. Perhaps it is actually an entrance, and is related to the castle in some way? I find the area around the castle fascinating, and wonder what further secrets it holds which have lain undiscovered for many a century... horse.gif

edit: the walls surrounding the 'keep' (if that is what the remaining structure is) are also much larger and more complete than they are now. All of these excellent sketches and photos that have been provided here I find greatly exciting, and I am beginning to get my own picture of what this castle used to look like. Thanks again!
Gordon
You're bridge is more likely to be some sort of drain connected to the original drainage system which dried the Loch, or perhaps connected to old mine workings in some way.
I'll check later and see if pastmap or Canmore mention it.
Gordon
There's an old mill lade which runs past Crosshill, likely this is the end of it. I've still to check the old maps and we'll see what I find.
Gordon
From Canmore;
QUOTE
Crosshill
Alternative Names: Templeland
Type of Site: Industrial/ Food And Drink; Grain Milling/ Farmstead; Corn Kiln
NMRS Number: NT19NE 34
Map reference: NT 1799 9588
Parish: Ballingry
Council: Fife
Former District: Dunfermline
Former Region: Fife

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Site Details Images on-line Collection Summary Digital Summary


Archaeology Notes
NT19NE 34 1799 9588

See also:
NT19NE 66 NT 1805 9597 Farmstead; Mill Lead

A group of buildings depicted on the 1st edition of the OS 6-inch map (Fife & Kinross, 1856, sheet 31) some 150m NE of Lochcraig House have been removed. They are annota ted on the map 'old cornkiln, old mill lead'; the 2nd edition of the OS 6-inch map, (Fifeshire,1896, sheet xxvi SE) names this site as 'Templeland'.
(Cleish91 106)
Visited by RCAHMS (SH) 17 September 1991

A farmstead named Templeland comprising one unroofed building, which is annotated Ruin, three roofed buildings and two enclosures, and an unroofed circular structure, which is annotated Old Kiln (Corn), are depicted on the 1st edition of the OS 6-inch map (Fife and Kinross 1856, sheet 31). The Old Mill Lead mentioned above lies within NT19NE 66.
One enclosure is shown on the current edition of the OS 1:10000 map (1990).
Information from RCAHMS (SAH) 10 August 1999
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Several of the old maps show a shortish burn running south into the Ore at the point shown on the photograph, just west of Milltown, and immediately west of the road bridge over the river. Doubtless it was covered over by the arched tunnel as development encroached, and just like the Molendinar in Glasgow, probably now runs underground.
It is possible that this was the mill lade, but on the maps it does not seem to have a water source, and is not as straight as the usual lades.
Being so short, I'd expect it to be dry in good weather.
The name Templeland may also be significant. It may provide a possible explaination for the possible medieval work mentioned at Chapel farm in the earlier Canmore extract, and the nearby names of Crosshill and Chapel Farm.....these are indicators that this portion of land may have been owned by the Knights Templar at some time prior to their excommunication and disbandment c1312.
Gordon
Thanks Andrew for the Cardonnel info, even the font of the text is the same.
JohnC
QUOTE (Gordon @ May 8 2008, 06:32 PM) *
From Canmore;
QUOTE
Crosshill
Alternative Names: Templeland
Type of Site: Industrial/ Food And Drink; Grain Milling/ Farmstead; Corn Kiln
NMRS Number: NT19NE 34
Map reference: NT 1799 9588
Parish: Ballingry
Council: Fife
Former District: Dunfermline
Former Region: Fife

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Site Details Images on-line Collection Summary Digital Summary


Archaeology Notes
NT19NE 34 1799 9588

See also:
NT19NE 66 NT 1805 9597 Farmstead; Mill Lead

A group of buildings depicted on the 1st edition of the OS 6-inch map (Fife & Kinross, 1856, sheet 31) some 150m NE of Lochcraig House have been removed. They are annota ted on the map 'old cornkiln, old mill lead'; the 2nd edition of the OS 6-inch map, (Fifeshire,1896, sheet xxvi SE) names this site as 'Templeland'.
(Cleish91 106)
Visited by RCAHMS (SH) 17 September 1991

A farmstead named Templeland comprising one unroofed building, which is annotated Ruin, three roofed buildings and two enclosures, and an unroofed circular structure, which is annotated Old Kiln (Corn), are depicted on the 1st edition of the OS 6-inch map (Fife and Kinross 1856, sheet 31). The Old Mill Lead mentioned above lies within NT19NE 66.
One enclosure is shown on the current edition of the OS 1:10000 map (1990).
Information from RCAHMS (SAH) 10 August 1999
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Several of the old maps show a shortish burn running south into the Ore at the point shown on the photograph, just west of Milltown, and immediately west of the road bridge over the river. Doubtless it was covered over by the arched tunnel as development encroached, and just like the Molendinar in Glasgow, probably now runs underground.
It is possible that this was the mill lade, but on the maps it does not seem to have a water source, and is not as straight as the usual lades.
Being so short, I'd expect it to be dry in good weather.
The name Templeland may also be significant. It may provide a possible explaination for the possible medieval work mentioned at Chapel farm in the earlier Canmore extract, and the nearby names of Crosshill and Chapel Farm.....these are indicators that this portion of land may have been owned by the Knights Templar at some time prior to their excommunication and disbandment c1312.



I checked out this bridge again earlier, and it does appear to be a culvert of some sort - there is definetely a stream running through it, so I suspect you're right again - the idea of it being some sort of escape tunnel merely appealed to my over-active imagination biggrin.gif

However that is absolutely fascinating about the possible Templar connection - the names 'Chapel' and 'Crosshill' do begin to make sense when viewed in this context - again, my imagination and inclination to veer towards the dramatic make this possible connection one of the most exciting finds so far! I wonder Gordon if you know of any way I would be able to confirm this connection, or at least to add some meat t the bones? Sorry to trouble you further, you have already produced some of the most interesting information yet regarding my project. If not, the circumstantial evidence of the placenames is fascinating enough; however I will be investigating this further.

Thanks again Gordon, you have given me much food for though Yes_Man.gif
Gordon
Casting back a little to the question John asked re Pont.
Timothy Pont drew up the earliest detailed maps of Scotland. Both his and Gordon's maps went on to form the basis of the Bleau Atlas of Scotland, one volume of Bleau's Atlas Novus, which was a multi volume map of Europe published in Amsterdam.
Many of Pont's manuscript maps survive, though unfortunately not the one for your area. They are viewable at the NLS link I gave earlier. The thing about both Pont and Gordon is that for the more important properties, they actually did a rough sketch of each, Pont even drawing in a window for each floor to illustrate how many storeys the building had.
There is a manuscript map for NE Fife. Bleau, having been supplied with Pont's c1596 maps, needed more and commisioned Gordon to complete the set.
Here's a sample of Pont, illustrating the Lanark area, and a number of castles and tower houses.
Click to view attachment
Gordon
The map of Fife and Kinross at NLS by
T. Sharp, C. Greenwood & W. Fowler, 1828, is interesting. I'm reluctant to post another image incase I test the patience of the copyright holders too much, but when you zoom in you can clearly see the Mill lades marked, for both Inchgall Mill, and a little south, a second at Glencraig. Neither corresponds with the culvert illustrated in John's print. It's also woth noting that of the maps I've looked at, the River Ore appears as a natural meandering waterway alongside a lenghty straight ditch, but on others, the straight ditch in the photo is clearly marked as the river, as it is today. The original course of the River has obviously been altered, and fed through a man made canalised ditch.
Duncan
now theres a mouthful O' great Wordsmith canalised ?!? neener.gif
AJR
Looking again at the photo, I would have thought this was just a storm drain. You can just see that it appears to go under the roadway, and out the other side. In this case it was built in order to stop the road getting flooded if the water level in the stream to the left of the picture, rose. There seems to be a wooden marker placed on the other side of the road at this point.
AJR
http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&...dC9Vc#PPT121,M1
Here is one volume of Cardonnel's work. Lochore Castle is not pictured in this volume, but since MacGibbon and Ross mention only Cardonnel and Grose specifically as sources of images, then I can only assume it was in another volume, not illustrated here.
JohnC
QUOTE (AJR @ May 9 2008, 10:02 AM) *
Looking again at the photo, I would have thought this was just a storm drain. You can just see that it appears to go under the roadway, and out the other side. In this case it was built in order to stop the road getting flooded if the water level in the stream to the left of the picture, rose. There seems to be a wooden marker placed on the other side of the road at this point.



The reason I believed it to be some kind of escape tunnel from the local manor house (which no longer stands, although an entrance to an underground vault and tunnel does) is merely urban legend - the supposed 'other end' certainly is a tunnel which leads somewhere, although me and my friends while younger were all too cowardly to follow the tunnel more than 20 metres or so. The other side of the road now houses a park, so you are probably right that it is nothing more than a storm drain, or perhaps simply a tunnel beneath the road carrying a stream into the River Ore.

I am currently on holiday from work, it is a beautiful day so I am planning an expedition to the Castle in the late afternoon to investigate further - if you're atall interested I shall let you know what I find; I'm hoping to find some 13th century tunnel with dungeons and rusting torture implements a-plenty, hopefully I will be able to retain this suspension of disbelief until I get to the storm drai..I mean, the dungeon biggrin.gif
JohnC
QUOTE (Gordon @ May 8 2008, 11:25 PM) *
The map of Fife and Kinross at NLS by
T. Sharp, C. Greenwood & W. Fowler, 1828, is interesting. I'm reluctant to post another image incase I test the patience of the copyright holders too much, but when you zoom in you can clearly see the Mill lades marked, for both Inchgall Mill, and a little south, a second at Glencraig. Neither corresponds with the culvert illustrated in John's print. It's also woth noting that of the maps I've looked at, the River Ore appears as a natural meandering waterway alongside a lenghty straight ditch, but on others, the straight ditch in the photo is clearly marked as the river, as it is today. The original course of the River has obviously been altered, and fed through a man made canalised ditch.


Yes, the course of the River has been altered to run straight alongside the road, as can be seen in a couple of the early photos posted in this thread. It only again takes its natural course some 150 meters or so from the Castle, once it passes under the main Road from Lochgelly to Ballingry.

Some of the maps I've seen certainly seem to indicate something flowing into the river at the approximate point of the culvert; however these old maps contain no key so I am uncertain what they are.

I managed to find the map that lists the area as 'Templelands', and a search of a Templar-related website does show that the Templars did indeed own land in Fife which went by this name. Unfortunately no location is given, but it looks likely this is the same Templelands - an extremely fascinating find.

Some of the things I have bee unable to uncover about my local area through this thread alone are truly amazing; I had no idea the history of this old parish is so rich - who knows what will be uncovered next, I don't think anything can surprise me.
JohnC
Could find no way of verifying what the Culvert is; however it is different from the one in the pic, which was probaby done away with when the modern road and parallel ditch was built - shall have to visit the planning office or somewhere like that. It seems a small point but the whole area around the castle is holding my attention more than my original project of researching my local area; I fear I shall become stuck on the castle and never manage to complete my fulfill my original quest - such is the peril of those who dare to enter Castle Duncan! biggrin.gif

Thanks to everyone for there help in this thread, it really has been illuminating, to say the least.

drunk.gif

edit - I hope this thread hasn't strayed off the Castle theme too much, sorry if I have taken it to places which aren't allowed here!
Duncan
spit.gif We have no such thing as not allowed around here. Click to view attachment
AJR
One thing often leads to another, which can set you off on a number of different paths. That's history.
JohnC
QUOTE (AJR @ May 9 2008, 03:22 PM) *
One thing often leads to another, which can set you off on a number of different paths. That's history.


Indeed, it's amazing to learn what we have on our doorstep. Only recently have I began to appreciate that history occurs everywhere, not just in Palaces and on battlefields - I've learned that within a mile of where I was born in bred there are Iron Age forts, Roman Camps, a (possibly) Normano-Scottish castle, and possible connections with the Knights Templars - and I haven't even got to the 15th century yet smile.gif

sheildsmile.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2008 Invision Power Services, Inc.